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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

First post First post First post
Author
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#581 - 2016-01-19 17:39:24 UTC
One question -
Can I extract 5SP then hit accept - then scam someone with it?
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#582 - 2016-01-19 17:45:35 UTC
Removed off topic post and those quoting them.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.

Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#583 - 2016-01-19 17:47:48 UTC
Back on the first page of this threadnaught I posted my support for this new feature. In this post, I will attempt to state my reason why I support it.

Things I currently can do with real-world money (and without violating the EULA/TOS):

  • Sub multiple accounts and multi-box them (but not input broadcast, of course.)
  • Purchase PLEX/AUR, to be used directly or sell PLEX/AUR for ISK, then...
  • purchase an officer fit Raven Navy.
  • purchase a super capital pilot, or a boosting alt, or a Falcon alt, or a subcap combat pilot.
  • purchase a Nyx or a Titan.
  • purchase a thousand Atrons to welp over and over (I'm looking at you, watch yoself) (
  • (new) purchase a Skill Injector item.
  • purchase multi-pilot training.


To a certain extent, all of the above are pay-to-win. By spending real-world money, a player can acquire in-game abilities or items much faster than somebody who simply does a single sub or PLEXes a single account. But none of them are an "I win" button. They do not convey to the purchaser the skills to effectively use those purchased items or in-game abilities. They do not give the purchaser respect from other players such that they can lead an alliance, corp or fleet, or be a sought-after fleetmember. They do not give the purchaser the ability to fly a 300k EHP, 2k DPS, 4k m/s Vagabond. They do not break the game. Any of them, new or old. They do not drive away new players. They do not drive away old players.

When I first started playing nearly two years ago, I purchased two PLEX and sold them for ISK (about 650 million back then) and a multi-pilot training cert to have a market alt. By doing so, I did not "win" by any possible definition.

So that's why I think this is not a bad thing. But why is it a good thing?

I will use Skill Injectors when they become available, certainly. (The extent to which depends on the price.) I will use them on my main, which is this toon, to train any off-remap skills if I feel I need them. I will use them on my alt which recently started a long skill-plan. (I could pick up a character today from the bazaar that will do what I plan for my alt, but I have no interest in having a character I didn't start myself. Then end result will be the same either way - and again, neither are an "I win" button, regardless of whether I spend real-world money or in-game earned ISK to acquire them.) I do not mind spending my in-game/real-world funds on items that provide me with a richer, more varied game experience. The coolest thing about EVE, in my opinion, is that things are different every time I log on. Different hostiles visit our system in different ships. Different fleetmates are logged on with me. I can fly either an Atron or a Domi depending on what I'm looking to accomplish. At some point, I'd also like the ability to choose between, for example a Domi and an Apoc - again not so that I'll have any increased ability to win any engagement (that has more to do with my knowledge of tactics, my situational awareness, and my ability to ruse my opponent,) but to offer up different kinds of engagements I can participate in.
Nicola Romanoff
Lucifer's Hammer
A Band Apart.
#584 - 2016-01-19 17:49:14 UTC
As others have said I don't want a bunch of skills sitting at 0 in my queue, if they are gone, I want them gone.
I would like to be able to rearrange the skills of my own character without so harsh a penalty, even if it was a one off
again how others have said, how much is this going to cost in AUR
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#585 - 2016-01-19 18:03:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Nicola Romanoff wrote:
As others have said I don't want a bunch of skills sitting at 0 in my queue, if they are gone, I want them gone.
I would like to be able to rearrange the skills of my own character without so harsh a penalty, even if it was a one off
again how others have said, how much is this going to cost in AUR



I think Vets got the short end of the stick with this one - I would also like to see a skills re-mapper.

Maybe a whole character re-map like the attributes remap or maybe something like the extractor where you could store 20million SP before putting them BACK into whatever skills you want.
Josef Djugashvilis
#586 - 2016-01-19 18:09:21 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
Julien Brellier wrote:
Pay-to-win micro transactions creeping into Eve.

A sad day.


The Character Bizarre was already pay to win. At least this way RMT becomes more difficult

So I approve!


Do keep up, my dear chap.

The official line is that 'pay for skills' is to 'help' new players.

RMT is not the rationale this time.

The Character Bazaar was to make RMT more difficult.

This is not a signature.

Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#587 - 2016-01-19 18:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Eraza
I thought long and hard about this, and I only really found two reasons I would personally consider doing this.
#1, close the character bazaar to stop name/reputation recycling.
#2, a step in a transition to a free to play business model, which is now the dominant business model in the MMO market, and may make you feel left behind.

Instead of repeating that this is not a good idea, and a risky very unpopular one, or think you suddenly started disliking scammers,
I'm just going assume it's #2


Therefore, I'm going to suggest, this system of yours needs some sort of limit, based on time, say, having a cap on skillpoints people are allowed to add to a character, based on either char age, time since the system was introduced, or preferably a combination of those two.

This would enable the free to play business model transition, while also preventing rich(either RL or ingame) players from simply buying themselves god level characters, As well as preventing alliances with more money than things to spend money on, from turning their key players into god level chars.
You know that will happen with no limit, especially during tournament season. it's just a question of who will do it first.

Also, would you actually want people to buy themselves god characters, and then get bored and leave?

In an MMO, even in a free to play one, one of the main things you want as a developer, is keeping people around.
A player that got everything he wanted immediately, has no goals, gets bored, and leaves, instead of staying as a paying repeat customer.
Every single MMO I played, even ones that let you pay for power, had some system to cap player progression, to prevent them from speeding through content too fast.
Eve's skillpoint system, akin to levelling in other games, always acted as a power cap, limited by time.
And no, the caracter bazaar dosnt quite count as an exception, talking to people ingame reveals that only a small minority knows it even exists, skill point packs will be noticed by EVERYONE.
Plus the char bazaar loses you your reputation, for better or worse, and for many players, sense of self.
Buying skillpoints directly bypasses all of those mental checkpoints.


I would add a time based "skill point injection allowance", rather than any currently suggested system limitation, though perhaps a combination wouldn't be a bad thing.

Please dont turn eve online into a pure "pay for power" style game.
That stuff cant end well.
Zeddrick Anthar
Golden Orb Ate My Grandma
#588 - 2016-01-19 18:27:00 UTC
Eraza wrote:


Therefore, I'm going to suggest, this system of yours needs some sort of limit, based on time, say, having a cap on skillpoints people are allowed to add to a character, based on either char age, time since the system was introduced, or preferably a combination of those two.



I quite like this. I think skillpoints are probably the most valued thing in game. Look at the recruitment adds to see that the first thing a lot of people say about themselves is how many SP they have. But most of that value probably comes from the fact that skillpoints are difficult to obtain and you can't just have as many as you want no matter what you do. If people can simply buy as many as they want this gets devalued but put a limit on it and it might not be so bad.

Say you had a limit of 2 skillpacks per week. That would mean a new player could add about 4 million SPs in a month, which is quite a lot. It would then drop off as you get over 5 million SP and would probably mean you'd train at about 2x normal speed (but at quite a lot of expense). That means to have a 50 million SP character will still take the best part of a year instead of between 2 and 2 1/2 as it is now. As people get above 80 million SP they wouldn't be able to add more than 300K SP/week, which would less than double the training speed. People with 150 million SP characters would still feel like they have something special.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#589 - 2016-01-19 18:27:45 UTC
Eraza wrote:


Also, would you actually want people to buy themselves god characters, and then get bored and leave?




but if you run a MMO this is exactly what you do want to do - generate a revenue stream for player progression by selling the path to the end game.

The bored and leave part or churn rate is handled via content release - Blizzard does this really well with the regular introduction of new content to keep their God Toon owners happy. (They also have an income stream from vanity items)


Conventia Underking
Underking Family
Khimi Harar
#590 - 2016-01-19 18:29:25 UTC
I'd like the ability to remove skills entirely once they are at 0 skill points, even if it costs isk and I don't get anything back from doing it. Other than that, I'm fully on-board with the plan. (Oh, and please put this on sisi so people can try to break it before it goes live.)

For God; Salvation is Imperative, but not at the cost of our Humanity!

The Vitoc Problem - Conventia Underking

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#591 - 2016-01-19 18:31:13 UTC
From the devblog: "We weren’t sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that you’re also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release."

I feel this is disingenuous. I read the comments to the previous devblog and have also been watching the playerbase attitude toward this topic on other threads. The general consensus seems to be at least slightly more opposed than supportive.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Ein Herje
Indirect approach
Fraternity University
#592 - 2016-01-19 18:36:54 UTC
Algarion Getz wrote:
When i first read this dev blog, i thought its Aprils fool's day ...

Quote:
We weren’t sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits [...]

wat
I remember that feedback was mostly negative.


I also thought is was a joke haha, but here we are everything will go to hell now.
They should at least make a cap for it something like 50-80 mill sp.
Luther Fairfax
Wholesale Industrial Supply Co.
Reeloaded.
#593 - 2016-01-19 18:44:01 UTC
Kyt Thrace wrote:
OK, My question is simple.

After you remove the skill points to 0 in those skills you no longer want, can you remove the skill from your skillsheet.

I do not want a bunch of 0 level skills showing up. Why remove skill points if you can not remove the skill itself.

Please answer this CCP.


Beat me to it, this needs to be a thing
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#594 - 2016-01-19 18:52:12 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
From the devblog: "We weren’t sure exactly what to expect but it quickly became clear that many of you were able to see the potential benefits and that you’re also ready for some big changes in EVE, especially when they might help bring in newer players or give you more freedom with your own characters. After going through a lot of feedback while refining the design, I am now here to announce that we will be adding Skill Trading to New Eden and it is currently scheduled for our February release."

I feel this is disingenuous. I read the comments to the previous devblog and have also been watching the playerbase attitude toward this topic on other threads. The general consensus seems to be at least slightly more opposed than supportive.


It's obvious propaganda CCP is making up because they fully intended on implementing this game ending feature regardless of what the player based wanted. True statistics would show the ratio to be more like 65% against and 35% in favor, but CCP no longer cares for the 65% and has decided to completely ignore them. So yea to them (CCP) the overwhelming support they are referring to is the 35% in favor of this garbage integrating into Eve.

What this means is that CCP no longer has anymore confidence in themselves to improve Eve to satisfy it's player base anymore and has decided to milk out their only cash cow while it still has milk left. In short, Eve is finished!
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#595 - 2016-01-19 19:01:37 UTC
What price will Skill Extractor have in AUR... if to big it wont be to popular ?

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

James Tiberius Kirk
State War Academy
Caldari State
#596 - 2016-01-19 19:04:50 UTC
At least initially, >40m SP (or some other arbitrary SP) characters shouldn't even be able to inject SP.

I get that this is coming and there is no way to stop it, but at least try prevent this from exploding and restrict the usage until you get some data.

Imho only <20m characters should be able to use this.

Also a relevant topic, will attribute points ever get removed after years of speculation and statements of intent from CCP? This affects skill extractor cost, plex price, and the entire LP store market.
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#597 - 2016-01-19 19:07:13 UTC
Jackie Fisher wrote:
How many million Aur will the tear, err I mean Skill Extractor cost?


It is the last relevant question.

Any debate before the answer is completly irrelevant (if we ignore the bittervet ocean of tears).

If the goal is to help newbros, the AUR price must be low. If the price is too high, it will only help rich people (irl) and rich people (ig) to build insta-alts.

500K sp is 8 days of training for a x1 skill. It is litterally nothing. If the base cost is something like 200m (after AUR conversion), the base price for 500K sp will be 200m + 1/4 PLEX (around).

So actually it will be something like 450/500m.

2b for a full month of insta training (2m sp).

Is this will help newbros ?
Udonor
Doomheim
#598 - 2016-01-19 19:07:38 UTC
Obviously skill extractors should be an aurum priced item. Thus removing PLEX, ISK and skillpoints from the economy while encouraging injecting additional RL money at some point in the overall process.

Save EVE. Spend more RL money to keep CCP support healthy.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#599 - 2016-01-19 19:11:59 UTC
Carper wrote:
I have 257 milliion skillpoints. I have played EVE for a very long time.

The only remaining sense of achievement i got from the game was the training.

I can live with having this feature for low SP characters to help them, but 100+ million SP characters really don't need anymore assistance.

What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?

For me, that rips the heart out of the game. Guts it.

And for those that say there won't be any Jita riots over this - they are right. But that's only because when things die they die 'Not with a bang, but a whimper'.


Looking at your self-botting XP bar at it fills up to the right in this de-facto pay2pointlessly_wait game is the "heart of the game" for you and "the remaining sense of achievment"?

In this game ?

Are you even for real ?

Quote:
[What possible incentive to continue to keep an account open for training is there - when some rich idiot can come along and in a single day create a 500 million SP monster?


To play the ******* game and do what it offers that you like, whatever that would be for you ? SP is a stupid timewall serving no purpose whatsoever. Besides making you wait for the sake of waiting - far too long for some things than the others.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#600 - 2016-01-19 19:12:33 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I have some useless skill points - mining for example, but I made the decision to train them and I should have to, and do live with those choices.

In what sense are you "living with those choices" anyhow? It's not like real life, where your life span is finite, you learn better when you are younger, and society tends to make it difficult to switch careers late in life.

Right now, training takes the same time no matter what else your trained for however long earlier. The only "consequence" you suffer is that if your goals change then compared to a hypothetical you who had your new goals from the start your character will be older when your reach them. Basically, if you compare your training to the the ideal "from newbie to X" skill plan, then your detour to other things has "cost you time". But that's just in your mind.

It would be different if for example there was a hard cap on SP, so that you could train only say 50M SP and no more. Or if training speed slowed down significantly as you acquired more SP. Then there would be real consequences of "wasted skill training". As it is, there are basically none.

What skill point injection does is to allow players who have either ISK or unwanted SP (and AUR) to train into new skills more rapidly. That's all.

If you think that's "evil", then I would suggest that you rip out all those implants that make you train faster. I bet you paid for those with ISK... This is simply another method of paying ISK to get skills faster. And unlike implants, which definitely increase the total SP growth in the game, these injectors may decrease it (though that depends on how much of the SP comes from active players extracting unwanted SPs, and how much from SP farming alts).