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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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We should eliminate basic insurance.

Author
morion
Lighting Build
#21 - 2016-01-19 12:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: morion
baltec1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

You firstly believe that there is significant inflation in EVE, which is false.


It is a fact that the cost to put together a ship has doubled in the last 5 years.


With market history in game going back only 1 year.

I can not see that with my eyes.Idea
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#22 - 2016-01-19 13:03:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Great idea for rich people, terrible idea for poor people.


Ah ah ah.

In the short term, perhaps.

But part of what keeps the poor players poor is the relative income and buying power they lack... precisely because the rich players have such secure streams of income, especially liquid isk like insurance provides. Remember, income and buying power are all relative.

A rich player(and we're really talking about rich PvE players compared to poor PvE players, I just wanted to establish that) gets way, way more raw benefit from basic insurance than a poor player ever will. Why? Because the rich player flies larger ships MUCH more often.

Once you cross the barrier into flying and losing battlecruisers and battleships, you derive disproportionate benefit from it compared to people using frigates and cruisers. And that is cumulative, so the upper ends keep getting higher and higher raw numbers, outpacing the lower levels and creating inflation, which devalues the buying power of the poor player still further.

To improve the lives of the space peasants we need to shake up the primary income streams in this game, and basic ship insurance is unfortunately a very big one.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

morion
Lighting Build
#23 - 2016-01-19 13:46:59 UTC  |  Edited by: morion
Insurance v isk created / Stuff ^ exploded basic moor isk less stuff inflationary

Ratting v isk created + stuff ^ born basic offsets or neutral

Ratting without looting is inflationary

Mining zero isk created + ^ Stuff is born deflationary.

Station trade ^ Isk destroyed "tax broker fees" / Stuff neutral deflationary.

That said insurance is a Isk faucet.

I would like to see smarter insurance.

It is only part of a larger picture.

When describing why Stuff / items change price / value over time.
Doddy
Excidium.
#24 - 2016-01-19 14:14:29 UTC
Troy Cintryx wrote:
Hey EVE. Troy Cintryx here.


We should eliminate basic insurance on all ships. That's the 40% payout you automatically get when your ship goes ka-boom. I always wondered why this was in place to begin with.

If people want insurance, they can pay for it.

There needs to be greater consequences for getting destroyed. Death barely has any consequences anymore, save for the loss of any implants installed, or boosters... boosted. Anyway, I digress.

Insurance can be bought at most stations for a price. It's not like it would be difficult for capsuleers to get if we eliminated basic insurance.

I just think it's time the Secure Commerce Commission stopped rewarding people for getting destroyed.




Note: There was a previous topic from 2012 here - I'm not talking about getting rid of ALL insurance, just the basic automatic insurance that everyone gets for free.


You live in opposite land, the eve player base is already far too risk averse, that is why pvp has dried up. Removing insurance just makes people less likely to take risks.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2016-01-19 14:21:30 UTC
Doddy wrote:
You live in opposite land, the eve player base is already far too risk averse, that is why pvp has dried up. Removing insurance just makes people less likely to take risks.

He's advocating for the removal of "basic" insurance, the sort that you don't buy, but the kind that pays you out when you lose your ship regardless if you bought a policy or not.

I don't know if that changes your response any, but you said "removing insurance", when he's just asking for the removal of free insurance. He outright said he wants to keep other insurances that you pay for. So if someone is risk adverse, they can still buy a policy.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#26 - 2016-01-19 15:54:46 UTC
while we're at it, can insurance instead of paying isk, pay out minerals/moongoo? - so if you get top insurance on a T1 ship, you can then go and find a ME 10 BPC, and make a new ship for only the cost of the run?

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#27 - 2016-01-19 18:37:35 UTC
morion wrote:



With market history in game going back only 1 year.

I can not see that with my eyes.Idea


Info is there if you know where to look, I still have a load of old EON mags with prices in them.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#28 - 2016-01-19 19:21:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
morion wrote:



With market history in game going back only 1 year.

I can not see that with my eyes.Idea


Info is there if you know where to look, I still have a load of old EON mags with prices in them.


Even if it's accurate (which I kind of doubt), it's incomplete.

Most ships, as well as pretty much all T2 modules, have had their build inputs directly altered in that timeframe. Metamaterials were introduced, tiericide saw material costs normalized across entire classes, generally with the "bad" ships being brought up closer to the requirements for the "Good" ships, etc.

You can't actually just look at a number from yesteryear and a number today and attribute the difference to inflationary action.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#29 - 2016-01-19 21:12:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

It is a fact that the cost to put together a ship has doubled in the last 5 years.

Entirely related to CCP's changes to build requirements, build costs, introduction of supers which massively inflated the demand for trit, etc. As you very well know. Every price hike in the mineral market has happened as a direct response to a CCP change, not a gradual sneak of inflation.
Trying to pretend otherwise as one of the main null cartels just shows how much you want this to step on the small guy, since the 'income stream' from this is at most 5% of what Null ratting brings in. Even if we attribute nearly all insurance payouts to basic payment.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2016-01-20 11:37:53 UTC
Doesn't matter how the prices have risen it doesn't change the fact that they have, OP's idea will change very little in the long run. Fact is that prices have gone up a lot over the years and there is an awful lot of isk sloshing about out there.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#31 - 2016-01-20 11:49:06 UTC
I still don't understand why the insurance companies keep on paying out to these irresponsible guys that lose their ships on an hourly basis without increasing their premiums.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#32 - 2016-01-20 12:25:10 UTC
morion wrote:
With market history in game going back only 1 year. I can not see that with my eyes.Idea


...and we almost care about you.

I do have all the most common ship base prices in my head, floating around and my obsessive compulsive disorder is comparing my memory with current pricetags and goes haywire.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2016-01-20 13:58:08 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Great idea for rich people, terrible idea for poor people.


Ah ah ah.

In the short term, perhaps.

But part of what keeps the poor players poor is the relative income and buying power they lack... precisely because the rich players have such secure streams of income, especially liquid isk like insurance provides. Remember, income and buying power are all relative.

A rich player(and we're really talking about rich PvE players compared to poor PvE players, I just wanted to establish that) gets way, way more raw benefit from basic insurance than a poor player ever will. Why? Because the rich player flies larger ships MUCH more often.

Once you cross the barrier into flying and losing battlecruisers and battleships, you derive disproportionate benefit from it compared to people using frigates and cruisers. And that is cumulative, so the upper ends keep getting higher and higher raw numbers, outpacing the lower levels and creating inflation, which devalues the buying power of the poor player still further.

To improve the lives of the space peasants we need to shake up the primary income streams in this game, and basic ship insurance is unfortunately a very big one.


The poor player would feel it worse than the rich guy if it was taken away tho since he does not have a stash of ISK to absorb losses. The player with a "rich" level of income probably no longer care about the payout one way or another because he can afford to lose the ship anyway. The player with a "poor" income is probably really happy to see that his T1 frig losses pas partially covered by a welfare system.

The base insurance isn't one at the end of the day. It's just a welfare from CCP to push player to stay in ships. The only odd part of this welfare system is that it's applied to all bracket of income unlike welfare in the real world that would usually apply only to people who effectively need it.
Amber Starview
Doomheim
#34 - 2016-01-20 14:27:13 UTC
Absolutely not this idea is not required or needed in any way shape or form ~1

if you have too much ISk it makes you personally unhappy give some away to a new player Corp / simple



Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2016-01-20 21:57:55 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Doddy wrote:
You live in opposite land, the eve player base is already far too risk averse, that is why pvp has dried up. Removing insurance just makes people less likely to take risks.

He's advocating for the removal of "basic" insurance, the sort that you don't buy, but the kind that pays you out when you lose your ship regardless if you bought a policy or not.

I don't know if that changes your response any, but you said "removing insurance", when he's just asking for the removal of free insurance. He outright said he wants to keep other insurances that you pay for. So if someone is risk adverse, they can still buy a policy.


Even basic insurance will change peoples evaluation of the risk in certain situations, most like leading people to be more risk averse.

baltec1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

You firstly believe that there is significant inflation in EVE, which is false.


It is a fact that the cost to put together a ship has doubled in the last 5 years.


I think you are actually both correct. The average price of a Hyperion battleship in January 2010 was around 124 million ISK. Now the cost is 1.88 times higher or just under 234 million ISK.

Now one could argue that that is inflation. However, if CCP does things to change the availability of minerals in game and thus the price of minerals then you’d see an increase in the price of battleships. But calling this inflation is only really true in the most basic sense of the word: inflation is an increase in prices. But typically inflation is considered to be a monetary phenomenon—i.e. print more money you get inflation, contract the money supply (take money out of circulation by buying assets via open market operations or increasing ISK sinks in terms of the game) and you get deflation. In the later sense of the word inflation then the price of a Hyperion has been remarkable stable except for an uptick in the price starting in the fall of 2011 and stabilizing in Spring of 2012. When exactly did drone poo go away and when did refining loot drops from rats change? Since the Spring of 2012, the trend in price for the Hyperion has been, if anything, slightly negative. However, if we look at the data since August 2014 the price has been trending up slightly. There does appear to be a cycle in the price

All data are from eve-marketdata.com

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2016-01-20 22:05:52 UTC
Regarding historical price increases for the Hyperion.

From January 2010 to November 2011 the price increased 14%.
From November 2011 to April 2012 the price increased 70%.

That 70% increase is unlikely to be inflation, but is more likely due to changes in loot drops that made “mining with guns” far less of a thing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2016-01-20 22:12:08 UTC
Annual average prices for a Hyperion:

Year Avg_Price
2010---113749241
2011---134637613
2012---214977236
2013---218973515
2014---207220150
2015---223308370

If there is sustained inflation...what happened to it after 2012?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#38 - 2016-01-20 22:13:33 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
baltec1 wrote:
Doesn't matter how the prices have risen


It matters if you want to use naive price data as evidence of inflation.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#39 - 2016-01-20 23:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Teckos Pech wrote:
Annual average prices for a Hyperion:

Year Avg_Price
2010---113749241
2011---134637613
2012---214977236
2013---218973515
2014---207220150
2015---223308370

If there is sustained inflation...what happened to it after 2012?


I'm curious why a Hyperion, instead of Plex, is being used as the metric here?

My own claims of inflation have been purely Plex related for some time now. It's a very direct reflection on the value of time in EVE. Your time is worth less than it was in 2010, for example. A lot less.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2016-01-20 23:49:55 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Annual average prices for a Hyperion:

Year Avg_Price
2010---113749241
2011---134637613
2012---214977236
2013---218973515
2014---207220150
2015---223308370

If there is sustained inflation...what happened to it after 2012?


I'm curious why a Hyperion, instead of Plex, is being used as the metric here?

My own claims of inflation have been purely Plex related for some time now. It's a very direct reflection on the value of time in EVE. Your time is worth less than it was in 2010, for example. A lot less.


Back up stream the reference was to a battleship and inflation.

PLEX has a much more gradual rise, but there are periods where the price climbs as well. Later when I get home I can down load the PLEX data and look at that too. I have the graphs of the average daily Hyperion prices that are quite interesting and was planning on posting those too. Well, links to them.

I've been wondering though if PLEX is soaking up much of the extra ISK in the game thus keeping inflation "away" from other in game items.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online