Intergalactic Summit

The only thing Tovil-Toba did wrong was missing the capital of Gallente-Prime - after the degenerate act of tyranny that was the bombing of Caldari Prime, you deserved worse. Sadly we are used to paying in Caldari blood for Gallente arrogance.

Well, Mr. Tuulinen, you can be surprising, both negatively, and now... positively.

However, since this discussion is about great deeds of Tibus Heth, I would like to remark, that Tibus Heth was actually trying to preserve Caldari blood. This was displayed even in his actions in Armor Forge. And probably this was the reason why he stopped further advance after he has liberated Caldari Prime from Gallente occupants.

While I personally can't agree with his decision to stop the war and I would be glad to pay any price to take gallentean swines down once and forever, I can't stop admiring strong Tibus Heth's resolve to preserve Caldari blood.

This has been discussed before but the first act of physical warfare was on Caldari hands. They destroyed Nouvelle Rouvenor, which resulted in a swift and anger driven response from the Gallente. Which, eventually, was responded with the attack on Hueremont. This is a gross simplification of events of course, but it is falsifying history to imply that Gallentean reactions were unprovoked.

Teinyhr, a commonly-debated issue. Caldari would say that this began with Gallente cultural imperialism, or else with Gallente political domination of the Federation, or with the Gallente blockade of Caldari Prime, or with the Gallente bombardment of Caldari cities. Gallente usually say that the first blow is Nouvelle Rouvenor, or else the Caldari corporations building secret colonies outside of Federation space; usually the first, however, as tax evasion is usually not a dramatic enough thing for use as a rallying cry.

The frankly sad thing is that the Gallente believe so firmly in the (to them) indisputable superiority of their cultural norms that they don't see how often they trample and degrade the cultures of those around them.

Teinyhr, remember the name of that historically significant group, the Cultural Deliverance Society? Do tell, what were the Gallente trying to do? Deliver the Caldari from the darkness of being Caldari?

Who shot first is inherently political.

And the point is disputed.

You don't have to fire a single shot for it to be an act of overt and atrocious hostility. I have no pod in this race, so I haven't bothered studying the history in enough detail to say either or, but I highly doubt it can be so clear cut. While the bombing of Nouvelle Rouvenor can be seen as the first shot, so can the hostile acts before then.

In the end, it's rather irrelevant as your two people can pretty much keep going "Yeah but before that, you guys..." back until history becomes so dim and fuzzy no one can tell what's true.

The simple fact is that when you take his actions on their own, given the context of the situation he was in, Tovil-Toba proved himself a man of courage, principle and unwavering strength, no matter who's side of the conflict you sympathize with. This is something people need to be better at in New Eden. Respect and acknowledge the feats and heroism of enemies when you see them, because these are qualities that should be encouraged and kept first and foremost in the minds of everyone who fights, no matter the sides they have chosen.

Hi! I'm disputing it. As does very nearly every Caldari citizen on this forum, and I'm sure no small number of Gallente academics. The point is, in fact, constantly disputed on this forum, every time it comes up. As I said, who shot first is inherently political.

Further, as Del'thul said, violence takes many forms. By blockading Caldari Prime, the Gallente were declaring the entirity of the Caldari people criminals for not surrendering all authority to the Federation, and exercising force with the aim of either the starvation or the economic collapse of Caldari Prime. This is not a peaceful act.

As for diplomacy, I would argue that diplomacy was simultaneously always an option and never an option. It was always an option, because a peaceful resolution that preserved the Caldari people and the Caldari culture would have been seized upon. It was, however, never an option because diplomacy is engaged between two equals. The Gallente federal system is predicated upon the supremacy of the Federation, and thus of Gallente interests. The Caldari, by acting independently and failing to bow to federal interests, were an ideological threat to Gallente interests. The nascent State could not be negotiated with, because doing so would both legitimize Caldari concerns about Gallente imperialism, and weaken the Gallente claim to the superiority of the Gallente-dominated federal model.

Tell me, then. If the Caldari had attempted to secede before the discovery of the hidden colonies, would the Gallente simply have gone, "Well, alright," and walked away?

Ah, so you're falling back on the logic that secret colonies are adequate grounds to attempt to either starve a planetary population or destroy its economy, by threat of force.

Indeed, neither of us is psychic.

However, I think you and I would agree that the Gallente had been treating the Caldari as needing to be cowed, as a dominion of the Federation without basis for self-determination.

I sincerely doubt they would have let the Caldari starve, even with the U-Nats in control, as they think themselves of paragons of the galaxy, protectors of the lesser people. Destruction of economy seems a more likely goal. I did not say that secret colonies are adequate grounds for either of those things, however the issue runs far deeper than that, as you're certainly aware, and as Ms. Del'Tul said earlier I'm sure we could dig the history books and folk stories forever as to who did what to upset the other first.

As to do I agree with you on the treatment of Caldari prior to the war? Yes, to an extent. I think "without basis for self-determination" is a bit sensationalist approach, but referencing what I said previously, it is also obvious Gallente leadership at the time did see the Caldari as "poor unfortunate souls" needed to be uplifted and cared for. However, at the time of first contact and several decades after that Gallente were several hundred years ahead of the Caldari technologically and they could have simply bombed the Caldari people back to a pre-industrial age and assimilate what was left, but they didn't. So as I see it, they did value Caldari right for self-determination, however they wanted them to do it on Gallente terms. But again, if things were just so simple, we'd all be friends here, right?

I have to wonder if the Gallente tried to use their "Republic Experiment" as a way to soothe their conscience... Too bad it too, blew up on their faces albeit less spectacularly.