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***Petition*** Petition to keep the refitting mechanic as is!
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Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#221 - 2016-01-11 17:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Hairpins Blueprint
biz Antollare wrote:
I say we let the refit mechanic stay as is and see how the upcoming changes effect the game first. With cap RR being restricted to being in triage only (no more slow cats) and the new addition of the force aux caps i think the refit mechanic should be left alone.

I personally enjoy refitting in combat and think it adds a level of complication to the game. We continue to play EVE because we like how complicated it is. not being a simple F1 MMO.

KEEP THE REFITTING MECHANIC AS IS

Signed.



+1

and keep the offgrid links too ....
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#222 - 2016-01-11 20:07:11 UTC
Why is everyone so desperate to keep this mechanic around? It really only benefits capitals or fleets with capitals on the field, and even then mostly carriers. It won't break the game to change it. Darn, what you showed up to the field fitted in is what you have to fight in. Well, any fleet without Nestors or carriers is in the same boat as you, so I'm sure you'll survive. Mobile depots always get incapped in 2 seconds, so it doesn't affect them at all.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#223 - 2016-01-11 20:57:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Valacus wrote:
Why is everyone so desperate to keep this mechanic around? It really only benefits capitals or fleets with capitals on the field, and even then mostly carriers. It won't break the game to change it. Darn, what you showed up to the field fitted in is what you have to fight in. Well, any fleet without Nestors or carriers is in the same boat as you, so I'm sure you'll survive. Mobile depots always get incapped in 2 seconds, so it doesn't affect them at all.

Obviously I can only answer for me, but my reasoning:

In the last year, CCP have been very vocal about the desire to encourage individual players to take a more active role in flying their ship in pvp. They want a game where the success of a fleet fight comes down to more than the decisions of the FC and everyone else able to press F1 at the right time.

Some things CCP has proposed have been directly aimed at achieving that, including the desire to change the fleet warp mechanics, new area of effect doomsdays coming with the capital rebalance, aspects of fozzie sov designed to break large fleets into smaller groups and mode switching mechanics on T3D that theoretically benefit more active piloting.

I certainly like that overall direction and feel that removal of the ability to refit in combat is a step away from that concept to address the single problem of slowcats.

Refitting is more than just drag and drop from/to a a ship to a hangar as demonstrated in this video that sort of kicked this response off after it was posted to Reddit last week (is also linked on page 1 of this thread):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfv9zRAxgA

The timing and decision making is critical and fits very well with the overall concept CCP is trying to achieve while also taking time to learn at that level of skill - managing the balance between his own tank and cap, while still being able to support his fleet.

So don't remove the mechanic and affect all situations, to address one problem. Address that one problem instead.
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#224 - 2016-01-11 21:01:36 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:


So don't remove the mechanic and affect all situations, to address one problem. Address that one problem instead.


Its funny that they already addressed the problem........and still think they need to address it

So Much Space
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#225 - 2016-01-11 21:12:58 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Why is everyone so desperate to keep this mechanic around? It really only benefits capitals or fleets with capitals on the field, and even then mostly carriers. It won't break the game to change it. Darn, what you showed up to the field fitted in is what you have to fight in. Well, any fleet without Nestors or carriers is in the same boat as you, so I'm sure you'll survive. Mobile depots always get incapped in 2 seconds, so it doesn't affect them at all.

Obviously I can only answer for me, but my reasoning:

In the last year, CCP have been very vocal about the desire to encourage individual players to take a more active role in flying their ship in pvp. They want a game where the success of a fleet fight comes down to more than the decisions of the FC and everyone else able to press F1 at the right time.

Some things CCP has proposed have been directly aimed at achieving that, including the desire to change the fleet warp mechanics, new area of effect doomsdays coming with the capital rebalance, aspects of fozzie sov designed to break large fleets into smaller groups and mode switching mechanics on T3D that theoretically benefit more active piloting.

I certainly like that overall direction and feel that removal of the ability to refit in combat is a step away from that concept to address the single problem of slowcats.

Refitting is more than just drag and drop from/to a a ship to a hangar as demonstrated in this video that sort of kicked this response off after it was posted to Reddit last week (is also linked on page 1 of this thread):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfv9zRAxgA

The timing and decision making is critical and fits very well with the overall concept CCP is trying to achieve while also taking time to learn at that level of skill - managing the balance between his own tank and cap, while still being able to support his fleet.

So don't remove the mechanic and affect all situations, to address one problem. Address that one problem instead.



But again, that's almost a capital exclusive mechanic, which isn't really the direction I think this game should go in. Capitals are already getting a better way to apply damage and affect battles involve sub-caps. They don't need to be able to swiss army knife their tank in the middle of a fight, or allow entire fleets to do the same. Bringing caps to every fight should not be the way this game moves. The whole point of the jump fatigue patch was to steer in the opposite direction of hot drop only fighting. So what's the solution then? Add MORE combat refitting ships and modules? Should every fight be a refit fight now? I don't think that's a good direction either. I'm all for more ways to let people show their skill in piloting their ships, but refits aren't the way to go. Stuffing your cargo hold for every eventuality doesn't feel like skill to me, and that's on top of the capital requirement, which again, isn't the direction I think the game should move towards.
Alexis Nightwish
#226 - 2016-01-11 21:14:21 UTC
The current refitting mechanic is a horrible pile of dogshit that allows a carrier to be the best at anything at any time with no consequences. I'm so glad they're changing it.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#227 - 2016-01-11 22:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Valacus wrote:
But again, that's almost a capital exclusive mechanic, which isn't really the direction I think this game should go in. Capitals are already getting a better way to apply damage and affect battles involve sub-caps. They don't need to be able to swiss army knife their tank in the middle of a fight, or allow entire fleets to do the same. Bringing caps to every fight should not be the way this game moves. The whole point of the jump fatigue patch was to steer in the opposite direction of hot drop only fighting. So what's the solution then? Add MORE combat refitting ships and modules? Should every fight be a refit fight now? I don't think that's a good direction either. I'm all for more ways to let people show their skill in piloting their ships, but refits aren't the way to go. Stuffing your cargo hold for every eventuality doesn't feel like skill to me, and that's on top of the capital requirement, which again, isn't the direction I think the game should move towards.

So what if it's primarily a mechanic used by Capitals and fleets with a Nestor (which are reasonably common in BS fleets currently and in wormhole pvp)? There are lots of mechanics in the game that are specialist.

In my experience prior to an since Phoebe, hotdropping is not the issue it was before and doesn't apply at all in J-Space. Aside from BLOPS (which require no capital to hotdrop), most non-BLOPs drops currently seem to be onto Capitals to kill them.

But whatever works for you. We are all just offering opinions here, not working towards a consensus. Your alternative opinion is fine, but just re-read the first line of my response to your question. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

The issue of slowcats is already being addressed in the coming changes (because carriers won't be able to use sentry drones), so I just don't see the need to affect other active/skillful uses of the mechanic when the current slowcat doctrine is already being eliminated.

CCP will do what they want in the end, no matter how vocal people are in support or against an idea.
Agakii
No trouble in the midst
B.E.A.R.S.
#228 - 2016-01-12 00:42:22 UTC
+1 This should stay ingame.

17thlegion.wordpress.com
Luft Reich
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#229 - 2016-01-13 00:59:33 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
The current refitting mechanic is a horrible pile of dogshit that allows a carrier to be the best at anything at any time with no consequences. I'm so glad they're changing it.


Man you have such experience with refitting I can tell! POS Party are clearly ones to go and use capitals and utilize refitting.

Seriously you are dumb. Try playing the game some.

ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post
Luft Reich
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#230 - 2016-01-13 01:03:15 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:


Btw I have no issue with removal of refitting on ships that are not in bastion/siege/triage


SSC Person with a good idea, what is this world coming to!

If CCP is hellbent on removing refitting in some way this is a good way to compromise.

ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post
Varyah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#231 - 2016-01-13 11:54:08 UTC
Requiescat wrote:
Varyah wrote:
stuff about refitting in whs


let me poke at the point the wh dudes are trying to get at, i think;

removing combat refitting takes away something from invaders. not an advantage, but a levelling of the playing field. when someone invades your wh system, they come to your home, and you can watch them do so, then bring appropriate ships to counter them with proper fits for such, refitted from an anchored ship maintenance array at a pos, and never have to worry about combat refitting. when invading someone's hole, you can only bring what you can fit through the hole, and many times it collapses behind you. being able to refit in combat doesn't put invaders at an advantage over defenders, it puts them on the same level, in that aspect at least, which takes away one advantage of the already stacked deck favoring defenders



That's interesting because the other guy stated that if the defenders would also employ combat refitting it would level the playing field. What is it now?

I can understand that the aggressors have only limited resources they can bring. But that the defenders wouldn't get an advantage out of combat refitting because they can choose their fit beforehand is a baseless claim as well! First, combat refitting can at least provide improved staying power by switching tank (shield, armour, hull), so this is an advantage the defender can have in any case. Second, the fact that the defenders can fit their ships taking into account what kind of ships aggressors brought is not really a wormhole specific thing.

The only difference it seems is that the aggressor might not be able to supply reinforcements like in K-space. And this I would argue is a wormhole problem (ask for increase of ships/mass allowed to pass wormholes or whatever) and has nothing to do with combat refitting - because both parties can do it and force multiplication would dictate that the larger group would get an advantage over the smaller group by employing combat refitting.
So in fact you wormhole guys should even argue for the removal of combat refitting because it reduces the greater advantage the defenders might have over the aggressors - which have already some disadvantages.
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
#232 - 2016-01-17 05:37:46 UTC
Signed

This is a mechanic which encourages creativity and specialised tactics. EVE would be a poorer game without it.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#233 - 2016-01-17 05:55:51 UTC
Tarek Raimo wrote:
Signed

This is a mechanic which encourages creativity and specialised tactics. EVE would be a poorer game without it.


No, it wouldn't. It would bring the playing field of fleets who bring caps and fleets who don't to a more level area.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#234 - 2016-01-17 08:34:05 UTC
I have no problem with a fleet refitting in space but refitting while in combat is just silly.
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#235 - 2016-01-17 13:30:51 UTC
Luft Reich wrote:
[

SSC Person with a good idea, what is this world coming to!



IKR!!!

So Much Space
Syco Saisima
Vector Galactic
#236 - 2016-01-25 04:28:38 UTC
*Signed*

Refitting on the fly is a good mechanic and adds a level of skill to fights that would be lost if it were removed. It would turn into a game where once you entered Siege/Triage/Bastion you would die guaranteed if the damage was overwhelming without any way for a competent pilot to possibly change that outcome. Same goes for off-grid links alts, i mean what are you even thinking? Removing the ability to boost off grid after you have already nerfed links 3 times in the past makes little sense. The people complaining about off-grid links are either A. too lazy to probe them down or B. people angry with the fact that you can use a neutral alt in highsec wars to boost with making it completely safe unless ganked. An on-grid links ship NEVER survives in any considerable fight because it gets every ewar imaginable thrown on it straight away. Having to probe down links in a fight if they are really that big of an issue adds another good mechanic to the game and the enemy fleet needs to bring a probing ship along with them, especially if the fight is in lowsec since we usually don't probe fleets down for warp in like in null so only use would be for links.


MY SUGGESTIONS FOR A COMPROMISE:

Refitting Changes:

• Leave refitting for subs but add a refit timer giving you 30 seconds? to swap and then locked in for 5 minutes?
• For Marauders, FAX and Dreads you would only be able to refit once in Bastion/Triage/Siege
• Supers would follow the same rules as subs unless you give them the hinted to 'Modes' then give them a 'refit mode'

Links Changes:

• Once you activate Warfare links it blooms your Signature, see? that easy.
lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#237 - 2016-02-11 01:24:24 UTC  |  Edited by: lord xavier
While I have never been a huge fan of the refitting capability with subcaps. It adds a sense of skill to the game. Being able to refit from EM to Kinetic hardeners when damage changes from one to the other. Being able to change from Short range to Long range weapons. It adds a huge amount of skill to players and makes the field an entirely new thing. Being able to refit just makes fights more fun. If one side is able to refit how they play, and the other is not. You have just won because you spent the extra isk to be prepared.

While it is a double-edged sword. And ships are able to fit warp core stabilizers and warp off. I'd rather see the ability to refit on the fly stay, then given a 60s timer that ultimately would kill this entire mechanic. I'd also like to continue to see uses for all the ships in game. Doing this would render the nestor uselss (lets be honest, its **** aside from this soul purpose.)

Syco Saisima wrote:
Links Changes:

• Once you activate Warfare links it blooms your Signature, see? that easy.

I'd rather just see OffGB give 2.5% bonuses, OnGB give 5%. Forcing on grid command ships to actually be used. Giving command ships a reason to actually fit boosts and be there in the fight. Give people a reason to train boosts instead of just having one booster alt for fleet and one booster for each wing.
Kon Kre8r
#238 - 2016-02-16 01:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kon Kre8r
They are looking for something productive to do?

Taking away another Great Part of the game is how they want to spend payroll?
No wonder they need to sell useless crap and useless features.

At the very least - give us New Skill to be able to keep on refitting as we see fit :)

Refitting after all -- Is the reason so many of us enjoy not needing a fleet to do a simple exploration site for example.

Do what we actually want in game and who knows - we may even get excited enough to help you with your finance problems by buying something else you should be doing, like selling collectible models of our favorite ships!

So get to work on something we do want instead. Make the damn map bigger for example.

Give Black Ops ability to run Covert Ops Cloak.

Do something useful! At the very least actually read this and tell your friends and co-workers that you have found the 1 posting that can help solve all your problems.

Black Ops ships using Covert Jump Portals with Covert Cynos are NOT allowed to use Covert Cloaks. That makes sense.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#239 - 2016-02-16 14:30:30 UTC
For those cap pilots planning on quitting because they won't be able to refit during combat - please don't give away or SD your stuff. Lose it in glorious can't refit my shiit combat.


I think CCP is trying to make it so you lose ships instead of fly around invincible. Embrace the glory!!

Remember, if you can lose your ship, damnskippy you can wonk the other guys too. Let's get this done. Explosions for everyone!!!!
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#240 - 2016-02-16 14:56:44 UTC
-1

Geez, so you won't be able to refit during a weapons timer. That's what? 1 minute? Stop shooting/repping/using offensive mods, wait a minute, refit. What is soooooo hard about that?

Being able to refit on the fly while in the middle of a battle was bad game design, and it was abused. I'm happy they are making capitol ship combat more relevant. Now people will have to really think and consider, "Do we want to drop caps, or just take a huge fleet of battleships with T2 logi?"