Crime & Punishment

Then elaborate?
because I'm not complaining about PVP content. I'm arguing about the morality of Ganking in specific at this point, and after that, I will see where the thread goes.

moreover, the morality of the whole thing doesn't really apply since there is no real "victim".

Your last economic argument I will concede, but the previous one has flaws in it.
Except that the player in the FPS is out there with the intent to shoot others; this might not be the case with the victim of a ganking; in fact, I would argue that is exactly the opposite for a gank-victim.

next up: In diplomacy isn't not moral to lie and stab someone in the back, nomatter how you look at it.
The morality of free market is also irrelevant with your 1830's railway example.

And in it's essence, I think eve is about more than just blowing up internet space-ships.
Exploration, politics, industry are all just as much part of what Eve is about.

PvP includes but is not limited to space combat. Mining, trading, mission running, ganking etc, is PvP.

Take your face punching for example. If you don't want your face punched, then go into the game that only allows kissing. If you decide to enter the Eve room, it's well known that punching, eye gouging, back stabbing, stealing and maybe the odd kiss is allowed. Complaining about it later and saying it's immoral, would be lying to others and yourself. Which is the true immoral act.

I don't wholly disagree, but I do on a few points.
Mining, Trading, Mission-running etc. are not inherrently PVP-based, but are PVE(With risk of PVP). Ganking, Warfare and roaming are definite PVP.

In that sense, PVP is fully allowable, but from my perspective Ganking seems like poor sport at the very least; Going after those who you think cannot defend themselves propperly or those who are vulnerable, and without propper cause.

If the corp has declared war, then it's not Ganking and all stops are off, I'm fully in favour of that. And when a war is going, you also have propper cause to attack their supply-line in order to disrupt their ability to make war.

Ganking serves no such purpose to my eyes. The end-goal is not there, unless you wish to say that Gankers are at constant war with everyone; which is not true by the very essence.

And how does CODE. play into this? Code is an organised ganking-alliance, but they cannot claim to be at war with all of new-eden, because they knew that if they did that, they'd be out of resources before the end of a fort-night.
CODE. is in this essence (and I don't mean this in judgemental way) a cancerous entity in it's behavior.

No actually mining trading etc are PvP. You are in competition with other players. Even ship spinning became PvP when they added a counter.

Oh and just because you either dislike someone's actions or an allowed game style, doesn't make it immoral or wrong.

This argument would've flown, had it not been for the word "inherrently" in my argument. Mining an asteroid, and selling it is not inherrently PVP. The moment competition arrives it becomes arguably PVP, and even then it's only within really small margins of what is considered PVP by most people out there.
(I for one do not consider a competitive market-place PVP. It's not a technical definition persé but that's mainly because a competitive market-place is simply a healthy state of being towards an economy, both artificial as real. It's a personal consideration, rather than a technical definition in this instance.)


and shipspinning is a thing?

Also, there was a particularly ignorant aspect of the OP that I ignored earlier, but shall address now:



It's hard to do justice to just how laughably ridiculous this is.

As an industrialist, my relationship with CODE is symbiotic. I create and sell things for them to destroy, and they create demand for things I sell, such as mining barges and modules for mining barges. Their actions also reduce the supply that my competitors can bring to market, affording me quicker sales at higher prices. If they happen to gank a freighter hauling my stuff, I get a quick 15-20% profit on the collateral that was paid.

And you want to tell me I "must" vehemently oppose this?

Your limitations of what PvP stands for, are irrelevant. Those things are done in competition within the game of Eve. Therefore are PvP.

I can't believe you asked about ship spinning tbh.

Hello OP, im here to try to help you look at this in a different way. You've propably heard the often repeated propaganda line "the code always wins". Any player that didnt ride the short bus home from school (no offense intended to the developmentally disabled citizens of the world) can see this for what it is. Just because a group can decide its own metrics for success doesnt really mean they win every encounter every time. But when you come in here to a subforum like this one with alot of players that are regular posters and spout off like a raving maniac in the first few pages then not only does the code win but they win big, and the regular's here will eat you alive.

So what you need to do is let all the propaganda and rhetoric slide on by and then look at the bottom line. Code has a great PR scheme. Threads like this are their bread and butter. The second you pressed the post button they won. No matter what you posted, right or wrong, factual or flawed you handed them a big PR victory on a silver platter.

Now that it seems you have simmerd down a notch, try to look at things like this. You have to dig through alot of B.S. to read between the lines and realize that once you get past all the arrogance and big talk code's actual impact on the game isnt that significant in the grand scheme of things. So they killed billions and billions of isk in any given month, thats a very small drop in a very big bucket when you consider how much isk is killed in this game in any given month. So besides the trade pipes and in a scattering of popular mining systems where players should be extra vigilant, whats all the fuss about? And the code= player retention arugument, thats the eve online equivilant of lions making a herd of ungulates healthier by culling the sick and old. Though in this game its the willfully ignorant or obstinate that get culled. You've all heard it before but I'll repeat it for the OP's sake, learning and understanding of the most basic game mechanics will keep players safe 99% of the time.

Now if you still want to group up with other players and go out and chase gankers around trying to shoot them in that 25 second window between timers and share killmails with concord then by all means do what you gotta do, but for me that sounds about as fun as a kick in the teeth.

So here's my recommendation, instead of failing non stop daily with the anti-gankers (apologies for the loyal quote but the dude only knows four phrases) go the hearts and minds route. Code cant win hearts and minds because they enforce their code so inconsistently. You're either with them or against them. If you're a supporter you're with them and then there's everyone else. You OP, can spend 5 minutes making another player aware of who they are and how to protect themselves. Or if direct action is more your style you can do like I did a while back and roll an alt and gank permit holders. You havent seen hilarity untill you gank a player who thought they were safe because of something written in their bio.

I think I've pontificated enough for this post but before I wrap it up there's one more thing you need to keep in mind OP, try not to forget that at the end of the day code pilots are just dudes on the other side of a screen somewhere playing a computer game, some of them may be dickheads but there are dickheads in every aspect of life so why would it be any different in the anonymous realm of the internet?

Consider this a public service announcment and remember this is Eve Online, a hell of alot closer to chess then checkers.

Again, if i play Call of Duty Multiplayer, and only want to play it for the graphics, and am not interested in shooting or being shot, is the person on the other team immoral for shooting me?