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The downfall of Minmatar Militia
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Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#61 - 2016-01-13 21:33:25 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Mizhara, do you value the beliefs and ideals of the guns on your ship? No right? They are tools of war. As such is those profiteers and other undesirables fighting beside you. Who cares about their belief? When were done (the "wargames" I mean) and well throw them out as such. By rights they'll probably throw themselves out and return to curse, ect.


Respectfully speaking, I think if the end of the militia wars happened, you might regret these words. Without the proxy war to keep them busy, I dread to think what some of the extreme elements on both sides of the fence would get up to to occupy their time and guns.

Can't say I disagree with ya, though I've often seen the proxy wars as training for jus that....
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#62 - 2016-01-13 21:33:26 UTC
Weapons need to be measured versus the targets. You don't use orbital bombardment to suppress minor riots and you don't fly with Sansha or Sani Sabik to take meaningless proxy war systems. Especially given the kind of atrocious example that would set for baseliner supporters.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#63 - 2016-01-13 21:36:45 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Weapons need to be measured versus the targets. You don't use orbital bombardment to suppress minor riots and you don't fly with Sansha or Sani Sabik to take meaningless proxy war systems. Especially given the kind of atrocious example that would set for baseliner supporters.


I........ Can't really argue that. My apologies for questioning ya.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#64 - 2016-01-13 21:39:41 UTC
Don't apologize for it. Any stance is worth questioning and critiquing. If it is untenable, it will have to be abandoned. If it is worth standing for, it'll hold up to scrutiny.

I can't change any ways of mine that might be erroneous if people don't question and point out their flaws.
Anslo
Scope Works
#65 - 2016-01-13 21:40:28 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Weapons need to be measured versus the targets. You don't use orbital bombardment to suppress minor riots


YOU might not. Doesn't mean others can't.

Quote:
you don't fly with Sansha or Sani Sabik to take meaningless proxy war systems.


Meaningless? So the few people that live there aren't worth a damn? Not worth fighting for? Who cares about them even though their 'your people,' amirite?

Holy hell can you go back and disappear into the dumpster you hid in for the last few years?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#66 - 2016-01-13 21:42:45 UTC
If you care so much, why aren't you in the TLF Anslo?

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Anslo
Scope Works
#67 - 2016-01-13 21:43:40 UTC
DIDN'T YOU HEAR THE TLF IS DEAD OH GODS IT'S DEAD AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#68 - 2016-01-13 21:45:41 UTC
Got an actual answer?

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#69 - 2016-01-13 21:46:06 UTC
If you think who holds proxy war systems have even the slightest effect on the baseliner population in those systems, you're hilariously misinformed, Anslo. The only thing that changes in the systems is which capsuleers make money off it and can dock there.

Besides, like I've already mentioned, we've had the staircase in place since long before the proxy war started. The TLF never even entered into it. If anything, being in the TLF makes it more difficult to care for our own in the warzone.
Anslo
Scope Works
#70 - 2016-01-13 21:46:31 UTC
Because we did more for the TLF outside of it than inside of it.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#71 - 2016-01-13 21:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
EDIT: you all post so fast, my comment ceased to make sense with more stuff inserted in between.
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#72 - 2016-01-13 21:50:54 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Because we did more for the TLF outside of it than inside of it.


Like what? What lasting good have you had on the TLF?

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#73 - 2016-01-13 21:54:20 UTC
Kalaratiri wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Because we did more for the TLF outside of it than inside of it.


Like what? What lasting good have you had on the TLF?

Is anything really lasting in the proxy war? Before the fall of huola 2 years ago alot of good was done (my corp at the time left the militia as it was kicking off). That's part of the reason I joined them initially.
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#74 - 2016-01-13 22:00:10 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Kalaratiri wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Because we did more for the TLF outside of it than inside of it.


Like what? What lasting good have you had on the TLF?

Is anything really lasting in the proxy war? Before the fall of huola 2 years ago alot of good was done (my corp at the time left the militia as it was kicking off). That's part of the reason I joined them initially.


That is my exact point.

It's all very well people saying "Well, my contribution was much more important than yours", but when nothing lasts longer than 6 months or a year in these wonderful wars of ours, what's the point?

You're bickering over who's the biggest shrimp in the rock pool, while hungry fish wait for the tide to come in.

In my opinion, a single 3 hour excursion into the Drifter hives by Makoto's bunch has more impact on the cluster than 3 months of fighting over a constellation in the Bleak Lands.

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#75 - 2016-01-13 22:17:50 UTC
I have no doubt she's achieved a great deal more than all eight years of proxy wars combined, Kalaratiri. This is why I find the notion of sacrificing principle and honor for a marginally bigger chance at taking or defending a system to be abhorrent. It'd be a sacrifice for essentially nothing.

There are few extremes I can't envisage myself going to in the right situations and for the right causes, but it'd take some significant changes to the proxy wars for them to require such measures.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#76 - 2016-01-13 22:50:01 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
There are few extremes I can't envisage myself going to in the right situations and for the right causes, but it'd take some significant changes to the proxy wars for them to require such measures.


I know I'm guilty by association, but I've never understood the idea that using dubious assets to achieve your goals renders those goals unclean in some way. Those people were going to be shooting SOMEONE and we made them shoot the enemy instead of our friends.

Goals were met. Statistics posted. Quotas were filled.

I sleep perfectly fine, thanks very much.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#77 - 2016-01-13 22:59:37 UTC
I suspect you do. The problem is that I wouldn't, because I would have no place to sleep. My clan would disown me rather quickly for allying with enemies that seek their destruction, and rightfully so. However, this is not the main issue.

The goal is not system control. Oh, that's why we undock and fight and it's the measurable metric of success, but it's not the goal of what I do in faction warfare. Any victory I make there is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we still have absolutely no impact on the dirtside matters in those systems, thanks to CONCORD limitations on capsuleers and what we can do.

The only thing I can truly positively affect up here is those on the ground looking up at us. I can set an example. I can show what a Matari will do and what they will not do. I can perhaps inspire.

Betraying everything a Matari is for a worthless metric of bloodsport success? It'd be the equivalent of a soldier fighting an actual war shooting himself in the head as far as 'attaining the goal' would be concerned.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#78 - 2016-01-13 23:11:50 UTC
Who would you not work with to free your people? I have to ask.

I suppose I'm suffering from a lack of existential threat. As bad as the war with the Gallente has been in the past, even with the tragedy over Home a couple of years ago, that war isn't this war - and the Federation isn't seriously talking about or even considering invading State space.

If I thought the Federation had billions of State citizens in chains, I suppose I'd do anything to free them. It would also inform all my strategic planning.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#79 - 2016-01-13 23:25:27 UTC
The lengths I'd go to for freeing my people? I don't think I know the extent of that. I have trouble imagining anything I wouldn't do for that goal. That's not a goal I can achieve alone though. No matter how much power and wealth I'd amass, it'd be dwarfed by what any of our nations could field, even if I could directly target many of the Empire assets.

The strategy is simpler. Inspire and promote the necessity for victory among the baseliners. Fund and promote movement which can translate into political pressure for taking action. We can safely ignore pretty much anything capsuleers do and want, because we can't actually affect much at all in the Empire or among the Tribes. Get enough among the Tribes to care about saving our own, and we can change the face of New Eden.

The tactics involved are of course not something I'd elaborate too much about on the IGS, as it'd be rather easily countered.

If the proxy war actually mattered and winning it would free my people? I don't think there would be limits to what I would do to achieve that. That goal would make sacrificing principle, honor and the tattered shreds of my spirit worth it. As it does not... well, I'll save what I have for when it is needed.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#80 - 2016-01-14 00:41:14 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Because we did more for the TLF outside of it than inside of it.


Some days, I really miss being in the Huola Coalition, fighting for our people from Scope Works, we did good work.