These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Out of Pod Experience

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

SO.... Hybrid weapons are a thing.

Author
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#1 - 2016-01-12 23:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Uhm. I'm not sure when this happened, but the early technology for plasma rail cannons is a thing now.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_railgun

I find it neat.


I read things about a homemade railgun by some dudes using aluminum as ammo, which isn't magnetic.. "Aluminum is usefull because aluminum has a high boiling point.' Not sure why, but that's what someone who built a backyard railgun said. I saw white sparks and blue aluminum smoke come out the end. It definitely vaporized the small block. In fact they didn't even video it hitting anything. A video of a smaller version put some damage into something like a shotgun, but it wasn't nearly as effective as an actual shotgun.


So if high boiling points are usefull, Does hybrid ammunition in EVE have high boiling points. Would it relate? They are all at plasma based on the descriptions, and some of them are things like "Iron" and "Tungstun". I always read that and it makes me worrisome that hybrid ammo might be dangerous if the magnetic on the ammo fails.


Now that things in sci-fi are becoming reality we can test it against the guess of EVE. See if the devs were smarter than they thought when writing how the technology in EVE worked.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

Poddington Bare
Black Mount Industrial
Breakpoint.
#2 - 2016-01-12 23:49:32 UTC
You need to stay off the sauce, young man.
Ibutho Inkosi
Doomheim
#3 - 2016-01-12 23:58:37 UTC
Tell you what, OP, EVE's creators had a lot of sci fi to draw from. Plasma weapons, rail guns, lasers all have been in the literature for well nigh a hundred years now. All of that was based on theory extrapolated from observed fact, and we've been waiting a century in some cases for the application (yeah, right, a "pone app").

Kinda makes me wonder who's got the catching up to do. But, all that aside. When I see your sig I become worried for your sake. It's easy for "us" to imagine AI being HAL...or better. It's hard to imagine this one part of the sci fi prophesy fest might have been just a tad over drawn. However, that would all depend on what intelligence is to YOU, as to what the artificial version might be. I'll take Roddenberry over Clarke any day.

As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.

Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#4 - 2016-01-12 23:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
I came to this about EVE when trying to figure out how they fire aluminum. Because it ain't magnetic.

I imagined this is really just that "electrical Jacobs ladder" (science toy) turned into a weapon.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#5 - 2016-01-13 00:07:46 UTC
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:

But, all that aside. When I see your sig I become worried.



If it makes you feel any better. I made dinner and can't find the salt. Vegetables without salt. (Some bbq chicken too).

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

Pix Severus
Empty You
#6 - 2016-01-13 00:09:08 UTC
I assume high boiling points in ammo is desired because the process of firing it produces a lot of heat, therefore having ammo that will stay solid and not just splatter against the target is a good thing.

I'm just guessing though, I know little about these things.

MTU Hunter: Latest Entry - June 12 2017 - Vocal Local 5

MTU Hunting 101: Comprehensive Guide

Annemariela Antonela
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2016-01-13 00:12:15 UTC
Good, good; another railgun post.

“Culture is like a smog. To live within it, you must breathe some of it in and, inevitably, be contaminated.”

― Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon

Bael Vulpes
The Diogenes Club
#8 - 2016-01-13 00:13:29 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
Uhm. I'm not sure when this happened, but the early technology for plasma rail cannons is a thing now.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_railgun

I find it neat.


I read things about a homemade railgun by some dudes using aluminum as ammo, which isn't magnetic.. "Aluminum is usefull because aluminum has a high boiling point.' Not sure why, but that's what someone who built a backyard railgun said. I saw white sparks and blue aluminum smoke come out the end. It definitely vaporized the small block. In fact they didn't even video it hitting anything. A video of a smaller version put some damage into something like a shotgun, but it wasn't nearly as effective as an actual shotgun.


So if high boiling points are usefull, Does hybrid ammunition in EVE have high boiling points. Would it relate? They are all at plasma based on the descriptions, and some of them are things like "Iron" and "Tungstun". I always read that and it makes me worrisome that hybrid ammo might be dangerous if the magnetic on the ammo fails.


Now that things in sci-fi are becoming reality we can test it against the guess of EVE. See if the devs were smarter than they thought when writing how the technology in EVE worked.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4ZqfEJTGzw

The US Navy has an operational railgun that they're going to put on destroyers.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#9 - 2016-01-13 00:18:36 UTC
Pix Severus wrote:
I assume high boiling points in ammo is desired because the process of firing it produces a lot of heat, therefore having ammo that will stay solid and not just splatter against the target is a good thing.

I'm just guessing though, I know little about these things.



I kno right? But its projectiling them as a plasma. Blasters magnetic field (ball) it and fire it, which is to explain why it dissipates so fast "meaning short range". While railguns hurl it really fast and precise. The T2 ammunitions have explanations for how they work, but "rocket assisted" only works for projectiles. I don't see how a "rocket sabot" assists plasma fired in T2 spike ammo.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#10 - 2016-01-13 00:24:03 UTC
Annemariela Antonela wrote:
Good, good; another railgun post.



You can start the "anti gravity" thread then.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#11 - 2016-01-13 01:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mephiztopheleze
Hal Morsh wrote:
So if high boiling points are usefull, Does hybrid ammunition in EVE have high boiling points. Would it relate? They are all at plasma based on the descriptions, and some of them are things like "Iron" and "Tungstun".....


Just FYI: Tungsten has the highest boiling point of any element at a whopping 5,555C.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten

Which is why it's suitable for use in orbital kinetic bombardment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment and such projects as the Rod From God and it's been used in Discarding Sabot tank shells for yonks and yonks.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#12 - 2016-01-13 01:52:22 UTC
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:
I'll take Roddenberry over Clarke any day.
I'll take Adams over Roddenberry every day.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Memphis Baas
#13 - 2016-01-13 02:49:24 UTC
As described in that wiki you linked, the rail gun accelerates the ammo by passing current through it. You form a motor of sorts, when your electricity goes through one of the rods (rails), sideways through the ammo, and then back through the other rod (rail). The flowing current forms a magnetic field that pushes the ammo down the rails.

The ammo doesn't have to be magnetic, just electrically-conductive. Metals conduct electricity, so they work. Plasma also conducts electricity, so it also works. Of course, passing electricity through metals creates heat, which is where resistivity and boiling point come into effect. I'm guessing melting point doesn't matter because molten or not, the metal will still hit with the same mass and velocity.

In any case, the other method is to replace the rails with a series of electromagnets that are activated sequentially, to push or pull the ammo out. In this case the ammo does have to be magnetic. Plasma can produce a magnetic field if you somehow rotate it into a vortex of some sort.

For EVE, "hybrid" means a mixture between "projectile" and "energy." I believe we're shooting metal projectiles that are accelerated using energy (rather than some sort of explosive powder). The various types of hybrid ammo all have some (actual, real life) metal in the name, except for antimatter; in that case we're shooting antimatter for extra damage on impact (though the ammo stats don't reflect the huge increase in damage antimatter should do upon impact).

Containment is an issue with antimatter. It's also an issue with nanites, but supposedly it's all handled. Being a game, nobody's guns have ever jammed or blown up in their faces, in all of 15 years of massive use, nor have any nanites escaped confinement to wreak havoc on exposed systems.
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2016-01-13 02:52:28 UTC
Plasma MAG(magnetic accelerated gun) have been science fact for almost 50 years.

The trick is getting the energy levels to actually have an effective "shell".. and no you dont actually need a physical shell in theory.
Railguns require a whole order of material science to build however. The navy found this out the hard way when they first tried to just use simple steel shells and discovered at railgun energy levels such shells slag themselves into a near vapor at launch.

Now the cool part. There is zero significant functional difference between a railgun, a plasma MAG, or a particle lance... and yes all are either proven in applied theory or in scale testing. Honestly you'd be amazed at how many techs from the 50-80s are just now becoming a reality thanks to advances in energy generation, energy storage, and material sciences. If people wern't so anti nuclear we would have had huge social changes due to these changes.
Memphis Baas
#15 - 2016-01-13 04:09:38 UTC
Lasers are also in the same situation.

We're probably at the point where we can fully design stuff in CAD, with all the specifications, and then run performance and usage simulations, even if we don't have the materials or the energy levels for it yet. Basically, "Here you go guys, it's already designed, whenever you figure out a material that can withstand these conditions, for this little part here, you can mass produce it."

CAD Sci-Fi.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-01-13 04:37:31 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
I came to this about EVE when trying to figure out how they fire aluminum. Because it ain't magnetic.

Some things that aren't usually magnetic will magnetize when exposed to enough magnetic force, an example that you can do at home (not true magnetization but shows the example well enough) take a strong earth magnet and drop it down a piece of copper pipe slightly larger than the size of the magnet. The magnet will fall much slower than it should due to the magnetic forces it has and the force it creates through another metal (in this case the copper).

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#17 - 2016-01-13 05:43:53 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
I'm guessing melting point doesn't matter because molten or not, the metal will still hit with the same mass and velocity.
It's not exactly easy to maintain metal in a molten state. The temperature has to be controlled very carefully or the metal will just burn, leaving only impurities.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#18 - 2016-01-13 06:18:14 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
As described in that wiki you linked, the rail gun accelerates the ammo by passing current through it. You form a motor of sorts, when your electricity goes through one of the rods (rails), sideways through the ammo, and then back through the other rod (rail). The flowing current forms a magnetic field that pushes the ammo down the rails.

The ammo doesn't have to be magnetic, just electrically-conductive. Metals conduct electricity, so they work. Plasma also conducts electricity, so it also works. Of course, passing electricity through metals creates heat, which is where resistivity and boiling point come into effect. I'm guessing melting point doesn't matter because molten or not, the metal will still hit with the same mass and velocity.

Came here just to say this.

But adding further detail, conductivity is dependent on temperature as well as susceptibility to magnetic fields. It's a huge engineering challenge to build these at high enough powers without parts of it going "Ha, screw you. I'm not working any harder than this."
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2016-01-13 07:04:06 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
Uhm. I'm not sure when this happened, but the early technology for plasma rail cannons is a thing now.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_railgun

I find it neat.


I read things about a homemade railgun by some dudes using aluminum as ammo, which isn't magnetic.. "Aluminum is usefull because aluminum has a high boiling point.' Not sure why, but that's what someone who built a backyard railgun said. I saw white sparks and blue aluminum smoke come out the end. It definitely vaporized the small block. In fact they didn't even video it hitting anything. A video of a smaller version put some damage into something like a shotgun, but it wasn't nearly as effective as an actual shotgun.


So if high boiling points are usefull, Does hybrid ammunition in EVE have high boiling points. Would it relate? They are all at plasma based on the descriptions, and some of them are things like "Iron" and "Tungstun". I always read that and it makes me worrisome that hybrid ammo might be dangerous if the magnetic on the ammo fails.


Now that things in sci-fi are becoming reality we can test it against the guess of EVE. See if the devs were smarter than they thought when writing how the technology in EVE worked.


Pay very close attention to the hybrid weapon damage type. Notice that they do thermal damage.

Now make your conclusion.

Hal Morsh wrote:

I kno right? But its projectiling them as a plasma. Blasters magnetic field (ball) it and fire it, which is to explain why it dissipates so fast "meaning short range". While railguns hurl it really fast and precise. The T2 ammunitions have explanations for how they work, but "rocket assisted" only works for projectiles. I don't see how a "rocket sabot" assists plasma fired in T2 spike ammo.


I imagined that rocket-assisted projectile is exactly what the Minmatar are using. How else can projectile weapons hit their targets almost instantaneously if the projectile stops accelerating after leaving the barrel? They have got to be semi-gyrojets.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#20 - 2016-01-13 08:36:10 UTC
Quote:
I find it neat.

I find it spiteful.

Where are technologies enabling comfortable and fast space travel and colonization, where are technologies enabling humanity to thrive, rather than to destroy itself?
123Next page