Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The thing is that cloaked ships do break the game when they engage. Every single game I can think of have a counter to the cloaky. Except for eve that is. Its the fact that they can choose to engage when you are at your most vulnerable with accurate intel and come out unscathed as thats the power they have.

I don't think cloaked ships are to overpowered with there individual firepower. Its that you can bring more then one ship to the fight, choose when to drop that curtain at there leisure and at the point of engagement know they will win. That is the power cloaks hold.

The only thing that breaks this whole dilemma is local except for in WH space. But then WH space doesn't have belts that people farm, no cyno, no alliance wars, no stations other then POS (which you can't engage your target at). All contributing factors where the cloaking part of WH space is less of a problem as anyone who engages you either have chosen to engage prepared or you have somehow managed to jump your target in a sight with bunch of sleepers that will one shot you if they switch targets on you.

It makes it less of a pita to know you died when you were trying to pvp and not trying to fund your pvp. But then you would be even more pissed if you knew that your target was sitting 20km off your ship for the last 30 min watching you and didn't engage cause he knew at the time he wouldn't win the fight, its just something people never figure out and never rage on about.

A game mechanic shouldn't allow for lopsided engagements in this manner. It should be that both sides should hold the power to engage depending on what they bring to the fight. Rock, paper, scissors with cloaking being paper except we don't have any scissors in eve.

Morrigan
Simply put. Afk cloaky camping drones would give any player the counter move to afk cloaky camping. You would have to be a very special kind of snowflake to afk cloaky camp in a ship when drones could do the same thing. Meaning in effect that implicit threat decreases as what afk cloaky campers are becomes definable to afk cloaky camping drone capabilities.

Nah, they are on topic for reasons given. Powerful mechanisms in wh space weaken implicit threat, weaken those mechanisms and implicit threat suddenly becomes quite tangible.

Its incidentally an anti-elitist position. Wormhole dwellers are not special snowflakes (they are pretty much the same as anyone in Eve), but the mechanisms that protect them from implicit threat are special indeed.

It is relevant because it demonstrably shows what can weaken or strengthen implicit threats. The "very good reasons" Fozie was talking about.

Morrigan
I disagree.

It is however against rules to attempt to adjudicate forum rules. That is an exclusive moderator domain. Report posts you have issues with. Your understanding of what is or is not in keeping with forum rules is of supreme disinterest.

Feel free to do your own study on why mining and ratting is low sec is so incredibly popular.

Did you ever get the feeling I am about appeasement? I apologize profusely for conveying that impression and promise to be more abrasively direct in the future.

Morrigan
My position has remained constant.

Any issue does of course have many solutions. For as long as you understand the issue and are looking for solutions.

This issue is implicit threat projection as an established multiple account entitlement.

Off topic remark removed. - ISD Fractal

To impact hostile moongoo, you'd have to shoot the tower.

I don't even care about the cargo, I just want the killmail LOL
It gave me great satisfaction to pop a bubble, align to the presumed gate of origin said blockade runner came from, decloak & pop him. The bounties and ensuing hatemail were priceless!

Yet, making other players bankrupt is not why I shoot them in the first place. It's just another one of these "OMG Cloaks OP Must Nerf" statements that are just ... oh, you make it sound all so dramatic you know? The way I see it, you can zip through like 70% of the time. You're happy. I can shoot you 30% of the time, because we haz decloakers and proficient bubblers (not tooting my own horn, but ... my mean bubble machine caught plenty). So I am happy too.

it's an additional challenge that has to be overcome, but it can definitely be done.

I don't mind if you hotdrop me either - that too is part of the fun. Stuff is supposed to happen in space. I do not want to know 100% certain I can win the fight, catch you, or get away with my ship intact in any given situation. I want excitement when flying my whiiiieeeee spaceships! Win some, lose some, blow them up or get rekt -- IRRELEVANT as long as you have fun doing so.

If smuggling moongoo gives you thrills : Good for You! Please carry on. The moment your tower offends us, we shall let you know by blasting it into oblivion. What I gather from the back-and-forth in this thread however, mostly boils down to people playing EvE like it's a job. Must make ISK/hr. Must haul moongoo. Must not get caught, therefore must not undock. ... is it so hard to accept there are situations where no direct counter exists? Situation where unexpected events transpire and you have to deal with it, best you can?

People have the right to (attempt to) haul / mine / rat -- same as I have the right to camp or roam or cloak wherever I please. Cynodrop is OP too, some say ... until you take down some 1,5 bil Panthers. Woopsi - dun goofed. Much lulz to be had :-) One cannot mount a surprise stealth attack if you can see it coming with certainty. Blockade runners use their cloak usually for defensive purposes, that's fine too. After all, when either of them (both offensively or defensively) tries to actually accomplish something, they are at risk. When not doing anything, and sitting perfectly still in a safe .......... well, what of it? So far I haven't heard any good reason why this use of a cloak should have to die. And I've heard many arguments, even going so far as to claim it goes against the spirit of EvE, there is no cost involved, "but they're not even at the keyboard?!?!!" YEAH, SO? I still fail to see what gives you the right to decide I SHOULD be at the keyboard when I want to perform no action whatsoever.

Still, the arguments keep coming: this time it's about "you can't catch them while I make money". SO? I can't evict a margin trader from Jita either; but be that as it may: YES you can catch them. You can, we do it all the time -- the only requirement to catch a cloaker is that HE makes a moves. You cannot force it upon him. Taking ANY action on his part, however, is what puts him at risk.

Arg. I'm rambling again. Let's conclude that Yes, I can and have caught many blockade runners and besides, it is what makes them blockade runners in the first place. It's in their name. The tradeoff is reduced cargohold. They don't come cheap either. In return, they offer a good chance to run a blockade and deliver your precious cargo: working as intended. Not sure why you're trying to do PI or moonreactions with them though -- may I suggest using a jumpfreighter?

Brokk
Yah, I trust you see how disproportionately different income sources are protected. Moon goo and PI are untouchable in practical terms, and yet people whine on about casual ratting and mining as if those players are risk adverse.

Optimizing players multi box to avoid gate camps btw. Which is also entrenched multiple account entitlement fluff.

Afk cloaky camping drones is one way to address established privilege. Or in effect allow people to multi box using a single computer, single screen, and single account (by toggling between the active pilot ship and various drones out there that are controlled as if they were ships).

Its fine that you like to use your peak time on small roams and gate camps to catch PvE players. But that is not what null-sec Sov is about. But there are lots of ways to fix the implicit threat issue.

The monthly stipend Concord is going to start paying pilots is one way of doing it. It diminishes the need to rat and mine.

Edit
Hell, I use an interceptor to haul my finished PI product around. 250 million in cargo may not be that much, but its a convenient size with a convenient frequency and a convenient degree of safety and speed. Blockade runners scale up a bit with a practical cargo limit size of around 1 billion isk the way I use them. I will spare you the details of how silly I think Teckos outlined approach is.

Your backtracking is duly noted.

Or a siphon....but look in either case not really a damn thing to do with AFK cloaking.

However, I bet people who do drop siphons do so with...wait...wait....just a bit longer....cloaking ships.

Yes, I'm looking at you Xcom and Jerghul.

Let us, by all means, nerf cloaks so that siphons are actually harder to drop.

Several posts that were derailing the conversation and those quoting them have been removed.

Real life has absolutely zero to do with in-game balance.