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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5301 - 2016-01-11 20:37:58 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Teckos
I think we simply have to agree that you do not really understand that real life time is the only limiting factor for skilled and experienced players.


What are you talking about, I gave an example with a hard RL time constraint...and still there was opportunity cost.

I think the more accurate thing to say is that you just don't get opportunity costs.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5302 - 2016-01-11 20:43:51 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
A solution that was viable for quite some time while afk cloaky camping was more of a marginal thing. Its not so marginal now as hardware requirements are met by an ever growing mass of players (being able to nominally multi-box). Hence the need to end it.

I am not adverse to simply adapting various wormhole mechanisms to null-sec and in that way again marginalize afk cloaky camping.

But feel it is better to simply address the issue head-on.


And another load of hogwash. AFK cloaking is about as old as cloaks. And there is zero evidence it is becoming more prominent.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5303 - 2016-01-11 20:46:28 UTC
Talk to the hand Teckos.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Lugburz
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#5304 - 2016-01-11 20:47:06 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Its an issue. Specifically the AFK bit. Or to put it another way. The cloaky camping risk should be explicit. Someone doing it should be actively looking to blop someone (or otherwise engage). Or otherwise get hunted down for stupidly being afk while in space in null-sec.


no its not an issue, either bait them and counter or move system; what your saying is basically its an issue for farmers, farming a game isnt playing a game, if you want safe isk go back to highsec or move system; ive been playing for 8 years now and still i see the same damn **** on here man 'omg i cant farm isk in peace' honestly man what part of 'its supposed to be the most dangerous space in all of new eden' dont you see?
As for new players i agree that they should have relative safety, but thats what highsec is for; damn after less than two week ingame i lost my first ferox in lowsec; sure i was a tad upset, a bit bemused; but i understood IT WASNT SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE SPACE.

if you want to mine or do pi safely, go back to highsec - stop trying to make nullsec a carebear paradise; its ruining the game, honestly
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5305 - 2016-01-11 20:51:53 UTC
Nullsec is a carebear paradise. Or to put it another way. Have you caught any blockade runners recently?

I am not against a dangerous null-sec (you caught the afk cloaky camping drone thought?). I am just against a dangerous null-sec for some like it is now.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5306 - 2016-01-11 20:52:45 UTC
Lugburz wrote:
Jerghul wrote:
Its an issue. Specifically the AFK bit. Or to put it another way. The cloaky camping risk should be explicit. Someone doing it should be actively looking to blop someone (or otherwise engage). Or otherwise get hunted down for stupidly being afk while in space in null-sec.


no its not an issue, either bait them and counter or move system; what your saying is basically its an issue for farmers, farming a game isnt playing a game, if you want safe isk go back to highsec or move system; ive been playing for 8 years now and still i see the same damn **** on here man 'omg i cant farm isk in peace' honestly man what part of 'its supposed to be the most dangerous space in all of new eden' dont you see?
As for new players i agree that they should have relative safety, but thats what highsec is for; damn after less than two week ingame i lost my first ferox in lowsec; sure i was a tad upset, a bit bemused; but i understood IT WASNT SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE SPACE.

if you want to mine or do pi safely, go back to highsec - stop trying to make nullsec a carebear paradise; its ruining the game, honestly


We have been over the list of options to people being camped and it is never enough.

Having to rat in a group...OMG no!!! Having to mine in a group, OMG no. Get on comms? Are you crazy?!?! Standing fleet? That is completely outrageous. Move over as system? My ISK/hour!!!!!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugburz
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#5307 - 2016-01-11 20:55:39 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lugburz wrote:
Jerghul wrote:
Its an issue. Specifically the AFK bit. Or to put it another way. The cloaky camping risk should be explicit. Someone doing it should be actively looking to blop someone (or otherwise engage). Or otherwise get hunted down for stupidly being afk while in space in null-sec.


no its not an issue, either bait them and counter or move system; what your saying is basically its an issue for farmers, farming a game isnt playing a game, if you want safe isk go back to highsec or move system; ive been playing for 8 years now and still i see the same damn **** on here man 'omg i cant farm isk in peace' honestly man what part of 'its supposed to be the most dangerous space in all of new eden' dont you see?
As for new players i agree that they should have relative safety, but thats what highsec is for; damn after less than two week ingame i lost my first ferox in lowsec; sure i was a tad upset, a bit bemused; but i understood IT WASNT SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE SPACE.

if you want to mine or do pi safely, go back to highsec - stop trying to make nullsec a carebear paradise; its ruining the game, honestly


We have been over the list of options to people being camped and it is never enough.

Having to rat in a group...OMG no!!! Having to mine in a group, OMG no. Get on comms? Are you crazy?!?! Standing fleet? That is completely outrageous. Move over as system? My ISK/hour!!!!!



basically this ^
Lugburz
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#5308 - 2016-01-11 20:57:50 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Nullsec is a carebear paradise. Or to put it another way. Have you caught any blockade runners recently?

I am not against a dangerous null-sec (you caught the afk cloaky camping drone thought?). I am just against a dangerous null-sec for some like it is now.



it isnt or shouldnt be a carebear paradise dude, take a good look at the security status of the system and rethink.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5309 - 2016-01-11 21:01:02 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Nullsec is a carebear paradise. Or to put it another way. Have you caught any blockade runners recently?

I am not against a dangerous null-sec (you caught the afk cloaky camping drone thought?). I am just against a dangerous null-sec for some like it is now.



Linkkette Plug lost one recently in HED-GP
Freia Serine also lost one in U-QW
Nfynity Prime lost a viator in KBP7
Cyberstrike2027 lost a viator in N-RAEL
scully3 Alabel lost a viator in HED-GP
Russell Nemger lost a viator in Etherium Reach
Marianna Blavatsky lost a viator in 1-SMEB

All lost today in fact.

Plus 4 more in LS.

Yesterday 17 died in NS/LS.

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5310 - 2016-01-11 21:47:17 UTC
Jerghul,

If you are running a reaction POS set up and making ferrogel...how much ferrogel will you make in an hour? If you run it for a week, 168 hours, how much ferrogel will you have? How much of your output can you fit in your blockade runner, assuming it is fit for max cargo space? How many trips will you have to make each month to get your ferrogel to market in Jita?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugburz
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#5311 - 2016-01-11 21:49:01 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Jerghul,

If you are running a reaction POS set up and making ferrogel...how much ferrogel will you make in an hour? If you run it for a week, 168 hours, how much ferrogel will you have? How much of your output can you fit in your blockade runner, assuming it is fit for max cargo space? How many trips will you have to make each month to get your ferrogel to market in Jita?


i used to do that in my wormhole, after thre months i basically quite eve out of boredom lol
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5312 - 2016-01-11 22:02:49 UTC
Lugburz wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Jerghul,

If you are running a reaction POS set up and making ferrogel...how much ferrogel will you make in an hour? If you run it for a week, 168 hours, how much ferrogel will you have? How much of your output can you fit in your blockade runner, assuming it is fit for max cargo space? How many trips will you have to make each month to get your ferrogel to market in Jita?


i used to do that in my wormhole, after thre months i basically quite eve out of boredom lol



Now, now, don't give it away.... P

Jerghul is convinced that everyone uses a vaitor, crane, etc. to fuel reaction POS, moon mining POS, and so forth. Let him go do the math...if he can.

Jerghul,

Let me know if you need help. Lol

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Xcom
US Space Force
Black Rose.
#5313 - 2016-01-11 22:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Xcom
Jerghul wrote:
Afk cloaky camping is dangerous in the wrong way. Its implicitly dangerous. A nuisance thing that only encourages newer players to limit the time they play EvE to peak periods for organized pvp events. You have probably lost out on 100ds of fights due to a third party afk cloaky camping this or that system on your roams. A player that might have fought you does not because of the unquantifiable risk an additional neut or red in that system gives.

Its also not dangerous versus the right activity as it does not impact on PI or Moon Goo collection where the actual isk is.

I agree with this fully. AFK cloaking isn't an issue in the sense of ISK generation. It impacts it marginally, all it does is aggravate some individuals in those few camped systems. The issue is just the mechanic itself.

I think Mike put it right in post #5213. Its a loophole in the game mechanics adding a cyno on a cloaked ship, it has to be a massive oversight. Sadly one that isn't looked into properly along with a few other moduals that can be instantly activated after a cloak is dropped. 5 seconds after dropping a cov-ops cloak isn't even a delay including ping / server tick delays. Its mechanics like this that just doesn't look balanced and is what probably brings so many people to this thread.

Sadly this threads turned into some s**t throwing contest. Some individuals think its funny attacking anyone who suggest a nerf to cloaks, somehow gotten this idea that its a carebare act. So many things are done to dumb this game down but this ones damn not one of them. If null sec is flawed then that is a different topic and have little to do with one single modual that impacts null sec marginally.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5314 - 2016-01-11 23:36:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Xcom wrote:
Jerghul wrote:
Afk cloaky camping is dangerous in the wrong way. Its implicitly dangerous. A nuisance thing that only encourages newer players to limit the time they play EvE to peak periods for organized pvp events. You have probably lost out on 100ds of fights due to a third party afk cloaky camping this or that system on your roams. A player that might have fought you does not because of the unquantifiable risk an additional neut or red in that system gives.

Its also not dangerous versus the right activity as it does not impact on PI or Moon Goo collection where the actual isk is.

I agree with this fully. AFK cloaking isn't an issue in the sense of ISK generation. It impacts it marginally, all it does is aggravate some individuals in those few camped systems. The issue is just the mechanic itself.

I think Mike put it right in post #5213. Its a loophole in the game mechanics adding a cyno on a cloaked ship, it has to be a massive oversight. Sadly one that isn't looked into properly along with a few other moduals that can be instantly activated after a cloak is dropped. 5 seconds after dropping a cov-ops cloak isn't even a delay including ping / server tick delays. Its mechanics like this that just doesn't look balanced and is what probably brings so many people to this thread.

Sadly this threads turned into some s**t throwing contest. Some individuals think its funny attacking anyone who suggest a nerf to cloaks, somehow gotten this idea that its a carebare act. So many things are done to dumb this game down but this ones damn not one of them. If null sec is flawed then that is a different topic and have little to do with one single modual that impacts null sec marginally.


Well I showed you Malcanis' law and you went right down that road anyways. The poor wee new players. Roll We have to nerf AFK cloaking for the Children.™

The notion that this is a loophole is complete Bravo Sierra since the Devs created the cloaks, and they have been in game for about 10 years. The notion this is a loophole and nobody has thereby thought to close it is ridiculous.

Further, it is antithetical to the very notion of this game to have CCP doing things for you, that you can do for yourself. You and your friends can deal with an AFK cloaked pilot, and an ATK cloaked pilot. Bubbles, cans, interceptors, smart bombs, ratting in a group, looking at when he is active, etc. But nope, it is "CCP fix this for me!!!"

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5315 - 2016-01-12 06:07:50 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Have you caught any blockade runners recently?


I have. On average 2 per month. It's mostly the cloaky/nullified T3s we can't catch. And the jumpfreighters of course.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5316 - 2016-01-12 06:13:06 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Its a loophole in the game mechanics adding a cyno on a cloaked ship, it has to be a massive oversight.


Not only is it neither a loophole nor an oversight, it's fully intended.


Quote:

Some individuals think its funny attacking anyone who suggest a nerf to cloaks, somehow gotten this idea that its a carebare act.


It is a carebear act, and you wouldn't recognize game balance if it decloaked and pointed you.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5317 - 2016-01-12 06:15:58 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Its an issue. Specifically the AFK bit. Or to put it another way. The cloaky camping risk should be explicit. Someone doing it should be actively looking to blop someone (or otherwise engage). Or otherwise get hunted down for stupidly being afk while in space in null-sec.


See, this is where we disagree. Fitting a cloak gives you the right to pick your engagements (under current mechanics that is). This makes it perfectly okay to be AFK -- sometimes merely to relay intel on a POS / POCO timer. If the hostiles want to play the blueball game, well: so can you!

With the above quote, you think it's up to you to decide how a stealth operative should fly his ship. !?? That's not how EvE works! The mechanics are provided, how you use them is entirely up to you. Him being AFK pisses you off, and that is a very weak argument. It's not like he's breaking your game or anything.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#5318 - 2016-01-12 07:57:21 UTC
Xcom wrote:
Jerghul wrote:
Afk cloaky camping is dangerous in the wrong way. Its implicitly dangerous. A nuisance thing that only encourages newer players to limit the time they play EvE to peak periods for organized pvp events. You have probably lost out on 100ds of fights due to a third party afk cloaky camping this or that system on your roams. A player that might have fought you does not because of the unquantifiable risk an additional neut or red in that system gives.

Its also not dangerous versus the right activity as it does not impact on PI or Moon Goo collection where the actual isk is.

I agree with this fully. AFK cloaking isn't an issue in the sense of ISK generation. It impacts it marginally, all it does is aggravate some individuals in those few camped systems. The issue is just the mechanic itself.

I think Mike put it right in post #5213. Its a loophole in the game mechanics adding a cyno on a cloaked ship, it has to be a massive oversight. Sadly one that isn't looked into properly along with a few other moduals that can be instantly activated after a cloak is dropped. 5 seconds after dropping a cov-ops cloak isn't even a delay including ping / server tick delays. Its mechanics like this that just doesn't look balanced and is what probably brings so many people to this thread.

Sadly this threads turned into some s**t throwing contest. Some individuals think its funny attacking anyone who suggest a nerf to cloaks, somehow gotten this idea that its a carebare act. So many things are done to dumb this game down but this ones damn not one of them. If null sec is flawed then that is a different topic and have little to do with one single modual that impacts null sec marginally.


No one is attacking you. We are suggesting you bring something more to the table than "I hate cloaks".

See my earlier post for considerations you have to account for.

I'm not clear on why you are not complaining about the combat recons too - they can happily murder you and you never see them coming either.

This is the ideas forum, please explain your idea beyond "nerf it" in order that we can assess it on its merits.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5319 - 2016-01-12 08:11:12 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Xcom wrote:
Jerghul wrote:
Afk cloaky camping is dangerous in the wrong way. Its implicitly dangerous. A nuisance thing that only encourages newer players to limit the time they play EvE to peak periods for organized pvp events. You have probably lost out on 100ds of fights due to a third party afk cloaky camping this or that system on your roams. A player that might have fought you does not because of the unquantifiable risk an additional neut or red in that system gives.

Its also not dangerous versus the right activity as it does not impact on PI or Moon Goo collection where the actual isk is.

I agree with this fully. AFK cloaking isn't an issue in the sense of ISK generation. It impacts it marginally, all it does is aggravate some individuals in those few camped systems. The issue is just the mechanic itself.

I think Mike put it right in post #5213. Its a loophole in the game mechanics adding a cyno on a cloaked ship, it has to be a massive oversight. Sadly one that isn't looked into properly along with a few other moduals that can be instantly activated after a cloak is dropped. 5 seconds after dropping a cov-ops cloak isn't even a delay including ping / server tick delays. Its mechanics like this that just doesn't look balanced and is what probably brings so many people to this thread.

Sadly this threads turned into some s**t throwing contest. Some individuals think its funny attacking anyone who suggest a nerf to cloaks, somehow gotten this idea that its a carebare act. So many things are done to dumb this game down but this ones damn not one of them. If null sec is flawed then that is a different topic and have little to do with one single modual that impacts null sec marginally.


No one is attacking you. We are suggesting you bring something more to the table than "I hate cloaks".

See my earlier post for considerations you have to account for.

I'm not clear on why you are not complaining about the combat recons too - they can happily murder you and you never see them coming either.

This is the ideas forum, please explain your idea beyond "nerf it" in order that we can assess it on its merits.


Not to mention the massive oversight that has been around for 10 years. Maybe it is actually working as intended?

Personally, I think Xcom needs to catch up on various changes. As you mention the combat recons that do not show on d-scan. The nerfs to jump drive range and fatigue which also nerf cynos.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5320 - 2016-01-12 08:56:35 UTC
Teckos
I would personally chose to jump freighter things to market. But you can fly them in any straw man that rocks your boat.

Brokk
You are still not impacting at all on PI or moon goo, even with two a month. Optimizing players are immune to interdiction.

=============

New suggestion:

Afk cloaky drones that duplicate effects and potential of afk cloaky camper, but without hardware or multiple account requirements.

Two types:
Combat cloaky camping drone with scram and gun.
Cyno cloaky camping drone with scram and cyno.

Max 5 deployed per pilot. Drones afk cloaky camp unless actively controlled by pilot (who can toggle between pilot and cloaky drones to hot seat 1 at a time per account).

I cant wait to hear why this breaks cloaks.




Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1