Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Let's buff the smalls and forget micro exists.

You asked, I will deliver. Lets use a Tristan vs. a Rifter, similar T2 fits, all skills 5, navy or T2 ammo, T2 drones. I put Republic Fleet Phased Plasma on the Rifter because Hail doesn't track better anymore. The Tristan's Hobgoblin IIs have 1511 EHP vs. the Rifter, and the Rifter's raw DPS (overheated) is 148. With applied DPS of 148, it would take just over 6s to kill each Hobgoblin, but since the Hobgoblin has such high speed and tiny sig radius, the Rifter is actually going to have its DPS vs the hobgoblins significantly reduced. EFT claims 0% DPS with the drone orbiting the Rifter at full speed but I know that's a crock because I've shot little drones easily with small autocannons. Still, about 50% DPS is probably the best you can expect. That'll kill the drone in about 12s. I'll offer a calculation for 8s drone kills as well, for theorycrafting purposes and just because the Rifter could have had a webifier on it. (I didn't fit one because I gave it a more standard nullsec roam fit.)

I have the Tristan using Spike ammo, assuming it's sitting off at a safe distance plinking away while the Rifter tangles with its drones. The Rifter won't be able to chase down the Tristan right away if it's trying to shoot the drones because it will actually have to use its maneuvering capability to help make its weapons hit the drones harder since they can orbit it fast enough to defeat its tracking if it's not actively maneuvering to compensate for that. Should the Rifter succeed in killing the drones, it will be able to chase down the Tristan and attack it up close. But for now the Tristan + drones are dealing 30+119.3 raw DPS, while applied DPS (according to EFT) is essentially the full149.3 DPS because the Tristan can track the Rifter just fine at that distance and the drones can hit it just fine up close. The Rifter has 4940 EHP vs. the Tristan, including 2844 shield EHP which has a peak EHP regen at 14/s so I'll use 7 EHP/s defense as our average.



the fits

I'll give the Rifter the benefit of the doubt and say the Tristan only packed 5 Hobgoblins even though it has room for 8. I know I would have only brought 5.
If it takes the Rifter 12s to kill the first drone, the Tristan+drones deals 142.3 DPS, or 1708 EHP damage. During the 12s in which the Rifter is killing the second drone, the Tristan+drones are dealing 118.4 DPS except after the Rifter loses shields, it's dealing 125.4 DPS. It takes 9.6s to finish off the shields, and the remaining 2.4s deals 301 EHP damage to armor.
Now the Tristan at 3 drones is dealing 101.5 DPS to the Rifter in armor, taking 6.9s to get through it. The remaining 5.1s deals 518 EHP damage to the Rifter's hull.
The Tristan with 2 drones is dealing 77.6 DPS to the Rifter which has 576 EHP remaining and dies in 7.4 seconds, not able to finish off the last drone.

If the Rifter takes 8s to kill the first drone, the Tristan+drones deals 142.3 DPS, or 1138 EHP damage.
The Tristan at 4 drones is dealing 118.4 DPS, dealing 947 EHP damage.
The Tristan at 3 drones is dealing 94.5 DPS, dealing 756 out of the remaining 759 shield EHP.
The Tristan at 2 drones is dealing 77.7 DPS to the Rifter in armor and deals 622 EHP damage.
The Tristan at 1 drone is dealing 53.9 DPS, dealing 431 damage, 47 into structure.
Ignoring the time it takes for the Rifter to now overtake the Tristan (might be a while given the Rifter is only 633m/s faster if both have MWD overheated), simply having the Tristan shoot the Rifter with Javelin ammo, the Tristan will have 61.8 raw DPS (overheated), of which it'll probably be able to apply at least 75% of that (46.35) to the Rifter even considering the Rifter has a small maneuverability advantage. At 46.35 DPS, the Rifter's remaining 1047 EHP in structure will last 22.6s, enough time for the Rifter to deal 165.6 raw DPS (Hail, overheated) to the Tristan, for 3743 EHP damage, and I haven't even reduced for shield regen. The Tristan has 4502 EHP vs. the Rifter's Hail ammo, which means it'll survive with 759 EHP.



With a moderate look at the Rifter's ability to kill the drones, the Rifter was brutally beaten. Even giving it the benefit of the doubt, the Tristan still won the fight. This also wasn't taking into account several factors of actual combat, some important factors being the overkill damage the Rifter keeps losing every drone kill, the time it takes the Rifter to swap from one drone to the next, the Tristan shooting the Rifter during the final chase, the Rifter's guns burning out from overheating that long (or having to stop overheating). Most of the uncounted factors swing this even more in favor of the Tristan. Now this is a fight between a Rifter which is one of the best ships for shooting drones, and a Tristan which I chose because it's the only drone ship that doesn't horribly outmatch the poor Rifter. This scenario is swung as far in your favor as I can swing it.

So no, shooting drones is not a counter to drones.

The Tristan is the most powerful T1 frigate, but not because of some special tweaks CCP made that give it some slight edge. It's the most powerful T1 frigate because it's the T1 frigate that is a drone ship.


The Rifter is one of the weakest combat frigates but that's not because of some various attribute shortcomings lurking around on its stats page. It's one of the weakest because it uses projectile weapons. Now there is an edge you get in fitting room left over after the autocannons, but their power matches their fitting cost so the Rifter isn't a hard-hitting ship. The reason it's one of the best counters to small drones is because it uses autocannons, which is also why small drones are difficult to counter.




But if you're so set in claiming bias to my example, why don't you select two ships for me to pit against each other, which you think will prove your point? Just pick any two that are in a similar league and have a similar base cost, and you can even pick the weapons as long as you don't choose smartbombs. They'll be T2 or meta fit as the powergrid and CPU allow but you can also make fitting suggestions.

Theres a reason I keep a large smartbomb on my scorpion. :)

That's actually false, and is due to a false reading of the data.


The data clearly shows that by far the most dominant weapon system is drones on T1 cruisers. Think about it: tons of people fly T1 cruisers. They are cheap and effective, and almost all of them have a drone bay.


I'll argue that drones are overpowered, but I won't misrepresent data to support my bias.

Impressive. Seriously. *applauds*

And yet it was all for the benefit of a troll. SMH.


Back on subject, I feel that there must be anti-drone EWAR now that it is the only weapon system that doesn't have disruption.

If it was my choice, I'd make a series of Defender Missile Launchers that could only fire Defender missiles. They'd be high slot modules but would NOT require a missile hardpoint. Being high slot modules they would show up on the ship like regular turrets and launchers do.

Functionally they would be like RMLs, but larges would fire the current Heavy Defender Missiles, mediums would fire the current regular Defender Missiles, and smalls would fire a new Micro Defender Missile. Micros would be great at killing lights, regular Defenders great at killing mediums, and Heavies great at killing heavy drones/sentries. Of course, any missile ship could load size appropriate Defender Missiles into a regular, not rapid, launcher (so a HML could load Heavy Defenders as they can now). While it wouldn't fire nearly as fast, it would still be better than nothing.

The Defender Missile Launchers (DMLs) could be fired without a target lock, in which case they'd just choose a random drone that's redboxing you, and cycle on it until it dies or returns to its owner's drone bay. They could also be manually directed by locking a drone and activating the module. Defenders fired from a regular launcher would always require a lock.

If this happened, pilots would have to make a choice about their utility highs. "Hmmm, do I bring a neut, or do I bring a DML?" Also small gangs and fleets could have destroyers loaded with DMLs whose job is to screen for incoming drones and blap them.

An EWAR that effects drones and missiles is just unintuitive they have very little in common as a weapon system

... that's because you were using the wrong tool for the job if hit want to counter standard drones you use smart bombs if you want to kill gila drones you use rlml

I havent used them in a long time.. would auto missiles attack drones, or the ship that sent said drones?

It depends on the ship of course, but howabout a Vexor. A Vexor with no drones, 250mm Railgun IIs, navy antimatter ammo with max skills and no mag stabs deals 217.2 DPS.

But it's meaningless to contemplate a drone ship with no drones if nobody can kill the drones. But I might add that most drone ships are reasonably competent without drones, so even if you manage to kill off their drones (and you probably won't), it can still fight, albeit at a moderately diminished capacity.


You really have no argument. This isn't your typical "you have no argument" that people say to declare victory when they have a slight upper hand in a debate. I'm fully willing to come to your side if you can simply provide me with any reason to accept it but YOU REALLY HAVE NO ARGUMENT.