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***Petition*** Petition to keep the refitting mechanic as is!
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Varyah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#161 - 2016-01-08 14:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Varyah
Seraph Essael wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
Maria Dragoon wrote:
-1 I do not support this petition, change is the nature of survival, and in this case, they are making the change to balance capitals (carriers specially) so that they have less of a swiss army knife role. Because honestly, part of Eve is knowing your enemy before you engage them.




this isnt a place to debate the petition. you either sign a petition or you dont.... nice alt post .


Says this to someone against the petition.

Says nothing to those expressing opinions in support of petition.

For this reason alone, I have to say I do not support the petition, despite not supporting, apparently, not being an option.


Edit..

To be a bit more literal on this.
I do not support the petition (thus I support the change) as the current mechanic basically allows a single ship to become more than 3 different ships on the fly.
Shield tank, Armor tank, Hull tank, Full DPS, Full logi.

If you want a versatile fleet, you should have to bring a versatile fleet, not play "build-a-blocks" during combat..

Guessing you've never lived in a wormhole before, let alone had a wormhole cap fight?

That's okay, I won't hold it against you, but please learn what you are talking about before going on about something... Allow me to elaborate: When you go Bhalls deep into someones hole, you are sometimes closing the hole behind you. There is literally a limited number to the ships you can bring. Around 3 capitals and an assortment of Nestors / T3s / Logi. Whereas when you're jumping into someone home for a fight, whose ever home it is can literally blob the **** out of you with as many pilots and capitals as they have online (or can ping to get online) (it could go as far as the 70 vs 40 like what NoHo had against the goon wormhole corp. For the record, they wrecked our face off in a very good fight!). Refitting during combat allows the fleet jumping the hole, usually outnumbered if its a proper fight, to actually put up a decent fight and potentially win against stronger odds. Removing this while you have a combat timer just means yet more stagnation for bigger, already rare fights, in wormholes.

I agree with the let people give reasons though. If someone supports or does not support, it's fine for them to state why.


This sounds like complete bullshit. Are you really arguing that if the larger group is too dumb to use combat refits you can win as the smaller group by using combat refits?

It is rather trivial to recognize that combat refits would actually benefit the larger group even more than the smaller group because e.g. more ships can be fitted for max dps, force multipliers, etc.

So actually the opposite of the nonsense you told us is the case or is there some hidden mechanic of wormholes I am not familiar with that prevents defenders from using combat refits?

PS.: A lot of you argue, that it would take skill to combat refit. I think that notion is ridiculous. I would argue that removing combat refits adds depth to the game because now choice matters and you can't go unprepared in a fight and adjust your fit with one simple click to whatever suits you best in that moment. So no support!
Movtaron
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#162 - 2016-01-08 15:21:31 UTC
Signed.
Tellatubby
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#163 - 2016-01-08 15:42:19 UTC
Onehundredandsixtythirded
Zoon Muidac
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2016-01-08 17:35:21 UTC
Keep it as it is please.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#165 - 2016-01-08 18:09:46 UTC
Sort of signed. It might be justified to change this for capitals, but combat refitting is absolutely fine on subcaps.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#166 - 2016-01-08 18:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
The cap changes haven't even been announced and people are freaking out, the EVE playerbase is like a massive sociolgy experiment. I withhold my opinion on any proposed changes until they are actually published

Haidere wrote:

Why make the game even more like World of Warcraft: Spaceships Edition?


VirusMD wrote:
Stop dumbing down Eve CCP, This is not WoW! Please leave the refitting mechanics alone!


As has been long established by the EVE Lobby of Bittervets, any change to EVE means it's turning into WOW in space! Just keep beating that dead horse.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Apollo Shinoda
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#167 - 2016-01-08 18:41:28 UTC
+1 for not trying to fix what isn't broken.

Signature
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#168 - 2016-01-08 18:50:25 UTC
Chaotix Morwen wrote:
-1 combat refitting requires no skill and has no counterplay. Those of you who claim you like challenging gameplay, the challenge is now to survive 60 seconds before you adapt your ship to perfectly handle the current threat.

Ever heard of bumps?

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Allus Nova
#169 - 2016-01-08 19:16:26 UTC
I agree, Refitting in combat makes the game more interesting. Restrict repping carriers to triage that's fine, do away with slowcats, but don't make this World of Warcraft...seriously...we play Eve for a reason!
Ong
Lumberjack Commandos
#170 - 2016-01-08 19:52:58 UTC
+1

Of all the things wrong with this game, this is not one of them.
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#171 - 2016-01-08 20:23:32 UTC
Varyah wrote:

This sounds like complete bullshit.

This sounds like you've never gone Bhalls deep into someone elses hole...

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
Athraws
Rising Thunder
#172 - 2016-01-08 20:46:20 UTC
I support this message. Let the capital changes stand on their own and see how they pan out first. If there is still a problem, this issue can always be reexamined at a later date.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2016-01-08 21:48:09 UTC
Seraph Essael wrote:
Varyah wrote:

This sounds like complete bullshit.

This sounds like you've never gone Bhalls deep into someone elses hole...

So the invader is the only one that gets to use combat refits?

I'm pretty ambivalent about this, but the logic of being a WH invader centric asset when engaging a larger entrenched force that can do the same doesn't seem all that convincing.

Maybe those invading forces would fare better when the inhabitants didn't have numbers and the ability to turn one fit into as many as necessary over the course of a fight. Maybe not.
SoapyTits
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#174 - 2016-01-08 22:58:01 UTC
Weaklings
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#175 - 2016-01-08 23:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Essael
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Seraph Essael wrote:
Varyah wrote:

This sounds like complete bullshit.

This sounds like you've never gone Bhalls deep into someone elses hole...

So the invader is the only one that gets to use combat refits?

I'm pretty ambivalent about this, but the logic of being a WH invader centric asset when engaging a larger entrenched force that can do the same doesn't seem all that convincing.

Maybe those invading forces would fare better when the inhabitants didn't have numbers and the ability to turn one fit into as many as necessary over the course of a fight. Maybe not.

No, the invader is not the only one that can use it. Obviously. Jesus it's like trying to explain the same thing to the same people every time someone quotes me.

Allow me to elaborate. There is REAL SKILL involved in refitting, not ingame skills. Actually refit skills. Please see the Lazerhawks video I posted earlier.

A competent PvP group going agaisnt a larger group in their home hole will mean that they can actiaually hold their own in that fight rather than just be blobbed by capitals and slaughtered. It takes real skill to refit when youre under pressure to be able to manage cap, tank and maintain reps on people / reps on yourself.

A fight that involves two groups with reffiters that know what they are doing. Oh man, you need to be in one of them fights!

Please go away, watch the videos, try it out and come back. You will understand that good fight, I mean really good, gritty fights sometimes rely on this mechanic.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2016-01-09 00:43:31 UTC
Seraph Essael wrote:
No, the invader is not the only one that can use it. Obviously. Jesus it's like trying to explain the same thing to the same people every time someone quotes me.
Given the bias you keep giving to combat refits as an enabler to invaders the question seems pretty fair.

Seraph Essael wrote:
Allow me to elaborate. There is REAL SKILL involved in refitting, not ingame skills. Actually refit skills. Please see the Lazerhawks video I posted earlier.

A competent PvP group going agaisnt a larger group in their home hole will mean that they can actiaually hold their own in that fight rather than just be blobbed by capitals and slaughtered. It takes real skill to refit when youre under pressure to be able to manage cap, tank and maintain reps on people / reps on yourself.
I'm not seeing anyone dispute that there is skill involved, only question how this is specifically an invader advantage. Your reference to blobbing states this advantage exists, but doesn't do much to demonstrate is aside from implying that fights are more interesting when the capacity to fail or extend the fight through combat refits (possibly desirable in itself, but not an invader centric asset).

So that's the question still being asked: Is it just the greater capacity to fail while refitting that in your estimation enables the defender somehow without working against them, through their own mistakes or hostile competence, or something else?

Seraph Essael wrote:
A fight that involves two groups with reffiters that know what they are doing. Oh man, you need to be in one of them fights!

Please go away, watch the videos, try it out and come back. You will understand that good fight, I mean really good, gritty fights sometimes rely on this mechanic.
So the contention now is that you can't have good fights without refitting?
Zip Slings
SCI Zenith
Flying Dangerous
#177 - 2016-01-09 00:56:36 UTC
Signed
Thirdsin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2016-01-09 00:57:21 UTC
Welcome to Eve.
Where the Fleets F1 and Skill doesn't matter.

+1
Roland Cassidy
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#179 - 2016-01-09 02:28:17 UTC
+1

If refitting Capitals are the problem then why not make it a capital level change and not every ship in the game. Refit mechanics can allow smaller more tenacious and prepared groups to take on larger less coordinated forces of N+1warriors. They give these groups the fighting chance, and an edge that the large groups can't manage due to the unweildiness of the group.

There's a better solution to "This doesn't work with this ship class" than "lets rip it out for ALL the ship classes."

"Watashi no Tao wa magarikunetta michidesu. Watashi wa toraedokoro no nai, heiwa o motome, samayoimasu."

(Trans) "My Tao is a winding path. I wander, seeking an elusive peace. "

浪人
Varyah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#180 - 2016-01-09 02:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Varyah
Seraph Essael wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Seraph Essael wrote:
Varyah wrote:

This sounds like complete bullshit.

This sounds like you've never gone Bhalls deep into someone elses hole...

So the invader is the only one that gets to use combat refits?

I'm pretty ambivalent about this, but the logic of being a WH invader centric asset when engaging a larger entrenched force that can do the same doesn't seem all that convincing.

Maybe those invading forces would fare better when the inhabitants didn't have numbers and the ability to turn one fit into as many as necessary over the course of a fight. Maybe not.

No, the invader is not the only one that can use it. Obviously. Jesus it's like trying to explain the same thing to the same people every time someone quotes me.

Allow me to elaborate. There is REAL SKILL involved in refitting, not ingame skills. Actually refit skills. Please see the Lazerhawks video I posted earlier.

A competent PvP group going agaisnt a larger group in their home hole will mean that they can actiaually hold their own in that fight rather than just be blobbed by capitals and slaughtered. It takes real skill to refit when youre under pressure to be able to manage cap, tank and maintain reps on people / reps on yourself.

A fight that involves two groups with reffiters that know what they are doing. Oh man, you need to be in one of them fights!

Please go away, watch the videos, try it out and come back. You will understand that good fight, I mean really good, gritty fights sometimes rely on this mechanic.



Sorry but your argument is still that combat refits should stay so that players with REAL SKILL but small in numbers have an advantage over idiots with NO SKILL and high numbers. You are apparently comparing competent players with incompetent ones. Usually when considering balancing game mechanics ones does assumes about equal "skill" on both sides.
And besides, if combat refitting is the only reason you can win against a blob of amateurs that never heard of combat refits then you obviously had bad intel - otherwise you would have been prepared better.

PS.: And just one thought regarding this ridiculous "removing combat refitting turns EVE into WOW in space"-argument: Don't you remember that old school games didn't have respeccing? There was no changing skills on the fly, no swapping party members every other fight and whatnot. Choice mattered. Want a different gameplay experience - start from scratch or keep a suitable safe game. In WOW you started with increasingly costly respeccing, then it got cheaper, then you could have multiple specs at the same time and swap freely between them (nowadays probably even simpler) - basically combat refitting - need more healing power (Logi)? Respecc your Retri and SP as healers.