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Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships

First post First post
Author
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#341 - 2012-01-09 12:39:45 UTC
I like, but would prefer +1 Mid slot on Jag/Wolf...
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#342 - 2012-01-09 12:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL wrote:
Well guess what, ceptors don't see that much in low. Both have their uses, and deciding to make AF's into slightly slower / bulkier / more aggressive 'ceptors really isn't a good idea. Yes interceptors aren't the strongest puppies in the frig class, and i could understand people wanting the perfect frigate for the job, but that's the trade off for the speed / sig bonuses. If you gave them the combat stats of the AF class as well, it creates a massive imbalance, which is essentially what's happening here. AF's that can fill interceptors roles will honestly imo not improve the quality of fights, no matter what you think it will achieve.


Let's get this straight, shall we? Interceptors are (roughly)

- A lot faster than AFs (a little less than twice as fast)
- A lot harder harder to hit, having the above speed combined with a bit more than half the sig radius of an AF when running a MWD. If I'm not mistaken that means they're roughly four times as hard to hit.
- Twice as agile as AFs
- Cap stable with MWD and Warp Disruptor running
- Faster at locking
- Able to tackle from 36 km in the tackler variant.
- Faster at warping (13.5 vs 6 AU/sec warp speed)

There is literally no way that AFs will replace interceptors in the interceptor role. What will happen though is that combat interceptors like the Taranis will no longer (or at least less often) replace AFs in the frigate damage dealer role which was wrong to begin with. I've seen many more Crusaders or Taranises as damage dealers than I've seen Retributions and Enyos and that should change after these buffs.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#343 - 2012-01-09 13:04:02 UTC
Ab bonus would be bad....

MWD bonus is... bad...

I mean they aren't bad they are just redundant, we allready have MWD t2 frigates. So how about something more.... creative. Let me list what I can think up off the top of my head

Role bonus
100% increase in cap booster effect

100% reduction in afterburner cap use *for tackling battleships with try to neut frigates in one hit*

Speed and sig radius bonus. 50% reduction in ship sig radius at max velocity.
*this allows for the MWD bonus to still work, but only at max speed. It would also work with AB. Also it would make it so, once your in range your sig radius is basically back to normal while orbiting, but while you move in at full speed you can confuse enemy turrerts and get in without getting hit.


now instead of an afterburner speed boost how about a simple.... 50% overheating bonus?

Pne last idea I think of, while trying to think up wildly different ideas would be...

omg, yeeees, that's it.

800% boost to warp speed

It's an assault ship yes? well untill you fix warp slow down and speed up *i know it's on your plans* why not make assust ships the ship you keep in fleet to follow someone into wrap, get to the gate/planet before they do, and tackle?

Honestly I think making AFs fit into some kind of super warp speed role would be awesome.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
#344 - 2012-01-09 13:56:12 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Hello

Please post your feedback about Assault Ship balancing in this thread.

Thank you.


The changes are:

Retribution

* +1 mid slot


I just *$*
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
#345 - 2012-01-09 13:58:31 UTC
I think CCP should remove active tanking on frigates, it just won't cut it.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Deathwing Reborn
#346 - 2012-01-09 14:13:21 UTC
Quote:
Ishkur

* Added bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level
* +1 low slot



Is this going to be the same as all other drone boats and be 10% damage and hitpoints or just hitpoints? I believe that it should be the same as any other drone boat and was confused as to why it wasn't from the begining.
Kalaratiri
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#347 - 2012-01-09 14:50:35 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
I think CCP should remove active tanking on frigates, it just won't cut it.


In a 1v1 scenario, the active tanker will almost always beat a passive tanker. The ability to take damage, and then repair it makes it much stronger than just being able to take a lot more damage, but with no repair capability. In a gang scenario, passive tanks have their downsides as well. Passive armor tanks make them slower, and less agile, so more prone to getting hit. Passive shield tanks increase their sig radius, with the same effect.

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#348 - 2012-01-09 15:27:47 UTC
There is way too much hypothesizing about the end of frigate combat in this thread. Dramiels did more to that end then future AF could ever do. The latter for starters are slow and have to commit and win or die by their nature.

Most of the angst is over AF vs. other small ships down the road. Fine - let's look at that.

Destroyers -
Thrasher (Gold Standard)
Highest Gank/ Lowest EHP Shield Fit w/ Faction Ammo - 486 DPS/ 5.36k EHP
Lowest Gank/ Highest EHP Armor Fit w/ Faction Ammo - 304 DPS/ 9.28k EHP
Balanced Gank/ EHP Shield Fit w/ Faction Ammo - 434 DPS with 7.23k EHP

I have posted a couple times now that I feel the Cormorant and Catalyst do not have enough grid to fit properly to do their job. The numbers above on the Thrasher are nothing to blush at though. I'd feel comfortable engaging most AF in that.

Interceptors -
They need a touch-up. The Dramiel shoved most of these aside and they haven't come back even after the Dramiel nerf. I'd add T2 resists and increase fittings a bit. Maybe some more hit points too. Let them fit bigger guns and/or more tank. After the hybrid buff I actually looked at the Raptor (Craptor). It can fit bigger hybrids then before- but empties it's cap suprisingly fast using them. In addition to being the hardest interceptor to fit it's also the slowest and largest. Roll

EAF -
Obvious counterweight is obvious. These need to be fixed!

Faction Frigates -
Wait till the dust settles and revisit.

Tech I -
Let me refer you to the cruiser threads where Stabber pilots ***** that they can't take a vaga... o wait. They don't exist. Straight
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#349 - 2012-01-09 16:34:10 UTC
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
Quote:
Ishkur

* Added bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level
* +1 low slot



Is this going to be the same as all other drone boats and be 10% damage and hitpoints or just hitpoints? I believe that it should be the same as any other drone boat and was confused as to why it wasn't from the begining.


It is just hit points, not damage too.
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#350 - 2012-01-09 17:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
T1'S couldn't kill a T2 BEFORE any suggested changes. So why make it so you need about 4-5 rifters just to engage a Wolf?

I'm not understand the reasoning behind these changes is all I'm saying. Does everyone feel AF's are underpowered ? It seems like to majority of pilots feel that AF's are already the king of the frigs as is. If we are going to boost AF's we probably need to boost faction frigs, since they are already overpriced to cost as much as AF's do right now....

Maybe af's COULD use the MWD boost for null, and maybe slight tune-ups on a few other ones, but making them all a tier more powerful then they already were is clearly not the answer, the feedback from people alone here tells you that; yes nullbears are in general are satisfied.... but no, lowbears in general arent happy at all about a change thats going to completely unbalance frigate combat in general. Which means its clearly not the right solution. Frig combate is one of the best things about EVE im and a lot of low sec pilots will agree. Let's try to preserve that.


sidenote: If EVE wants new players to get into PVP, this is one of the worst things that could happen. No longer will wensley's rifter guide be as accurate, sure rifters couldn't solo jags before, but they didn't need a BLOB just to have a hope. I think the critical stage at bringing someone over for PVP is the first few weeks, if they are rolling around being completely dominated by not just faction ships being OP but all the AF's as well, its really not a friendly environment. Perhaps this isn't something that should be taken into account when discussing game changes, but it probably warrants a mention
Adrian Schultze
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#351 - 2012-01-09 17:18:05 UTC
What i still not got is the role bonus... Why do AFs get a role bonus technically belonging to ceptors and on ceptors it makes really more sense. What is the role of an AF? From my point of view it should be handled like their cruiser sized brothers, the HACs. They need more firepower or tank than the other frig classes. And not nearly the same bonus a ceptor gets.

It looks like this is a similar joke, like years ago the thingy with the SBs... where you were not able to use covert ops cloaks on SBs, what made them useless for most kind of stuff... CCP saw that mistake years later..
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#352 - 2012-01-09 17:54:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
What I still don't get is why people are whining about the MWD bonus. It's not like it's taking up the 4th bonus on any of the ships, it's just a nice extra that's completely optional.

Also lol at all the people asking for an AB bonus. Clearly they're new...
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#353 - 2012-01-09 17:58:26 UTC
Prom you do realize you constantly posting looks like you are defending yourself. Like this is your kid and your defending why he got into a fight at school or something. Not helping your case.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#354 - 2012-01-09 18:00:21 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
What I still don't get is why people are whining about the MWD bonus. It's not like it's taking up the 4th bonus on any of the ships, it's just a nice extra that's completely optional.


Because people are morons who think in terms of "are these bonuses useful" rather than "is this ship useful". This is why we see perennial complaints about Amarr's cap reduction bonus, ignoring the fact that many Amarr boats with the cap reduction bonus are basically fine. Too many people don't realise that you balance ships, not bonuses.
Tawa Suyo
Hun-Select
#355 - 2012-01-09 18:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tawa Suyo
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL wrote:
T1'S couldn't kill a T2 BEFORE any suggested changes. So why make it so you need about 4-5 rifters just to engage a Wolf?

You're aware the wolf isn't really more powerful than it was before right? If you wish to gank one down with multiple T1 frigs then you'll still be able to just as easily.

DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL wrote:
I'm not understand the reasoning behind these changes is all I'm saying. Does everyone feel AF's are underpowered ?

The ones that have been noticeably buffed like the enyo, retribution, etc? Yes. Yes I do think they are underpowered at the moment. It's why you see them so little, even in lowsec where AFs are much more prominent. Will make a change to 90% of AFs you see being Jag/Ishkur/Vengeance.

DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL wrote:
Maybe af's COULD use the MWD boost for null, and maybe slight tune-ups on a few other ones

That is indeed what has happened. Maybe.

DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL wrote:
yes nullbears are in general are satisfied.... but no, lowbears in general arent happy at all about a change thats going to completely unbalance frigate combat in general. Which means its clearly not the right solution. Frig combate is one of the best things about EVE im and a lot of low sec pilots will agree. Let's try to preserve that.

Confirming I am a null resident without a clue about frigate combat in lowsec.

But please, do explain how buffing the weaker AFs to the levels of the stronger ones while leaving those that already dominate at approximately the same level of power is completely unbalancing frigate combat in general...

I'm not surely you can 'clearly' draw conclusions without any underlying arguments or evidence. And yes, frigate pvp is one of the best things in this game and frankly I'd like a wider selection of ships within it.


DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL wrote:
sidenote: If EVE wants new players to get into PVP, this is one of the worst things that could happen. No longer will wensley's rifter guide be as accurate, sure rifters couldn't solo jags before, but they didn't need a BLOB just to have a hope. I think the critical stage at bringing someone over for PVP is the first few weeks, if they are rolling around being completely dominated by not just faction ships being OP but all the AF's as well, its really not a friendly environment. Perhaps this isn't something that should be taken into account when discussing game changes, but it probably warrants a mention


Currently most beginner pvp-ers are fighting other T1 frigs and bad cruiser/AF/faction frig pilots. This will remain the same.

And again, the stronger AFs are remaining at roughly the same level of power, the weaker ones have been buffed up to that level.

I'm not sure where you've got the idea that these ships are suddenly unkillable death machines from and I'm not sure why you wish to preserve a status quo where the same few ships are flown by most frigate pilots with the rest seen rarely if at all.

And for what it's worth, a cookie cutter Jag is one of the easiest AFs to solo in a rifter, you just have fit to exploit its weaknesses (ie, the appalling damage projection). A weakness that remains after these changes...
Mimiru Minahiro
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#356 - 2012-01-09 18:10:49 UTC
Can someone post the sig of wolf and Ishkur using halo set+loki booster? Doing the math in my head I think it is about 60 and 65 respectively (maybe a little less)

At work so I can't check right now
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#357 - 2012-01-09 18:14:08 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
What I still don't get is why people are whining about the MWD bonus. It's not like it's taking up the 4th bonus on any of the ships, it's just a nice extra that's completely optional.


Because people are morons who think in terms of "are these bonuses useful" rather than "is this ship useful". This is why we see perennial complaints about Amarr's cap reduction bonus, ignoring the fact that many Amarr boats with the cap reduction bonus are basically fine. Too many people don't realise that you balance ships, not bonuses.


Well I think the sentiment is that adding that paticular bonus makes it seem like CCP went for a "quick fix" rather than looking at the multitude of options, like adding support ships, or balancing T2 frigates as a whole.

If you balance all the T2 frigate, as an example, you can consider how they would work together on a Fleet level. This is a rock, paper scissors game. Bringing a very fast rock to the game with out counters to paper is gonna get you a very quick ride back to a clone vat.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.

Tawa Suyo
Hun-Select
#358 - 2012-01-09 18:15:55 UTC
Mimiru Minahiro wrote:
Can someone post the sig of wolf and Ishkur using halo set+loki booster? Doing the math in my head I think it is about 60 and 65 respectively (maybe a little less)


Probably.

I can also make a Hawk tank 1438 dps cap stable and without heat on TQ right now.

Not entirely sure what your point is...
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#359 - 2012-01-09 18:24:53 UTC  |  Edited by: DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
Tawa Suyo wrote:

Confirming I am a null resident without a clue about frigate combat in lowsec.

But please, do explain how buffing the weaker AFs to the levels of the stronger ones while leaving those that already dominate at approximately the same level of power is completely unbalancing frigate combat in general...

DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL wrote:
Which means its clearly not the right solution. Frig combate is one of the best things about EVE im and a lot of low sec pilots will agree. Let's try to preserve that.


I'm not surely you can 'clearly' draw conclusions without any underlying arguments or evidence. And yes, frigate pvp is one of the best things in this game and frankly I'd like a wider selection of ships within it.



I think that your post already confirmed you don't have a clue about frig combat anyway. For starters, the weaker ones (and by that i mean Retribution as basically all the other ones are very viable and have there place, with a little fine tuning needed at most. They can't ALL be the #1 solo AF. Yet sometimes you want the gank of an enyo / harpy in fleet, and other times the vengeance / hawk are better choices). Buffing out the minor flaws of some, to the level of stronger ones = good thing (if done with care). Buffing the stronger ones even further? bad thing. I don't know how the hell you think giving Wolf an extra low slot, a tracking bonus to make up for lack of web, and +20% to armor buffer is "leaving it approximately the same level of power", but I can guarantee that I won't be able to "gank that with multiple t1 frigs just as easily" =p

PS. I did have an underlaying statement, evidence and argument. Not in that particular sentence you chose to quote, but I'm quite sure it was very visible throughout my previous two posts so far =)
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
#360 - 2012-01-09 18:37:31 UTC
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
Quote:
Ishkur

* Added bonus: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level
* +1 low slot



Is this going to be the same as all other drone boats and be 10% damage and hitpoints or just hitpoints? I believe that it should be the same as any other drone boat and was confused as to why it wasn't from the begining.


Ishkur doesn't need more dps.