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Mass Burning of Max Amarria [Postponed]

Author
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#81 - 2016-01-05 13:27:26 UTC
There was no "Blood Age".
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#82 - 2016-01-05 17:54:37 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
There was no "Blood Age".

Could he be talking about the period before the Moral Reforms?

... uh, if I'm remembering Amarrian history correctly?
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#83 - 2016-01-05 18:12:16 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Could he be talking about the period before the Moral Reforms?
... uh, if I'm remembering Amarrian history correctly?


It doesn't really look that way, no. For the Minmatar were not discovered until much later than the Moral Reforms.

I find it hard to properly interpret Nauplius's version of history, as it conflicts in several places with what I know of history.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#84 - 2016-01-05 18:18:29 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Could he be talking about the period before the Moral Reforms?
... uh, if I'm remembering Amarrian history correctly?


It doesn't really look that way, no. For the Minmatar were not discovered until much later than the Moral Reforms.

I find it hard to properly interpret Nauplius's version of history, as it conflicts in several places with what I know of history.

Yeah, I know, it fits the profile of a sort of mythic "golden age" common to a lot of romantic visions of earlier times.

Just, you know, covered in blood.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#85 - 2016-01-05 18:55:35 UTC
Aren't we living in a sort of a Blood Age?
People are killing each other and dying for silly reasons. Some even die and reassemble their bodies just to kill again and again and again. Blood flows in rivers, clones and normal people turn into flesh piles, burnt ashes or frozen corpses, flying in cold void of silent space.

Does the history know periods with more deaths than we see now daily?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#86 - 2016-01-05 19:35:23 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
There was no "Blood Age".

Could he be talking about the period before the Moral Reforms?

... uh, if I'm remembering Amarrian history correctly?


No. H'es talking about a mad fantasy he's manufactured with his own imagination.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#87 - 2016-01-05 22:10:09 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
There was no "Blood Age".

Could he be talking about the period before the Moral Reforms?

... uh, if I'm remembering Amarrian history correctly?


I have written before of the Blood Age and the cycle of Ages that followed it. We now live in the twilight of the Golden Age, the Age of the Amarr Empire. This age was preceded by the Dark Age, which was preceded by the Earth Age, which was preceded by the Blood Age.

Now, we cycle back to a new Blood Age. As Diana Kim has noted, the signs of the this new Blood Age are everywhere. Rampant violence. Slaves, totally under my power as it was in the last Blood Age. Embrace the coming of the Blood Age. Amen. Amarr Victor.
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#88 - 2016-01-05 22:24:41 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Slaves, totally under my power as it was in the last Blood Age.

You were not alive for any of this so called blood age. And on that note, the so called ages only have meaning to you. Nothing you are saying affects anyone but you.

Nauplius, open your eyes and ears! Red god is right here asking you to farm this Sebiestor woman. Don't turn away from red god. Red god never turns away from you!
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#89 - 2016-01-05 22:41:49 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
There was no "Blood Age".

Could he be talking about the period before the Moral Reforms?

... uh, if I'm remembering Amarrian history correctly?


No. H'es talking about a mad fantasy he's manufactured with his own imagination.

What's not fantasy is us. We just need a man like Nauplius here to farm us.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#90 - 2016-01-05 22:49:36 UTC
Anyanka Funk wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
There was no "Blood Age".

Could he be talking about the period before the Moral Reforms?

... uh, if I'm remembering Amarrian history correctly?


No. H'es talking about a mad fantasy he's manufactured with his own imagination.

What's not fantasy is us. We just need a man like Nauplius here to farm us.

When you say " us" your referring to "me" "myself" and "I" right?

Roll
Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#91 - 2016-01-06 01:00:51 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Anyanka Funk wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
There was no "Blood Age".

Could he be talking about the period before the Moral Reforms?

... uh, if I'm remembering Amarrian history correctly?


No. H'es talking about a mad fantasy he's manufactured with his own imagination.

What's not fantasy is us. We just need a man like Nauplius here to farm us.

When you say " us" your referring to "me" "myself" and "I" right?

Roll

I'm referring to me, Samira, and all Minmatar.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#92 - 2016-01-06 01:11:44 UTC
That's what I thought.... I'll pass on that thank 'ya very much.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2016-01-06 02:25:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Lyn Farel wrote:

More seriously though, to all those above that seem to held a few examples as a true statement of general facts, please note that the case of the Udorians, and especially the Ealur, among other crushed civilization by the Amarrian might, are relegated in their original form to mythos. What truly continues to live from that mythos has long been incorporated into the Amarrian culture, the same way Amarrian culture has been imprinted on their own. They are standing historical examples of a full cultural assimilation.

On the other hands, the Empire also has indeed plenty examples where their attempts have not been successful, the Minmatar being a prime example of it, although it is debatable either it would have succeeded or not without all the external help that went to their benefit, to begin with.

Heresies like the Sabik or EoM, too, are good examples as well.


After much thought and discussion with my companion, I had come to a conclusion that the reason why the Minmatar do not assimilate successfully while the Udorians, Ealur and etc were had much to do with circumstances. The Ni-kunni, for example, never had their culture and way of worship eradicated, merely modified and put in a different context. They still kept their beliefs on the sanctity of water, but now the sanctity is linked to God. Next, they were never subjected to having a planet’s worth of population eradicated like the Minmatar did.

Moreover, the Ni-kunni came from a water-scarce planet and they had to toil under the boots of a tyrannical minority. The Minmatar on the other hand came from a resource-rich world and was making pretty good progress and had much to look forward to. For the Ni-kunni, being conquered and assimilated by the Amarr was an improvement. For the Minmatar, it was the opposite. No idea about the Udorians and what they were like pre-Reclaiming so I have no comments on that.

There’s also the possibility that the way the slaves were treated changed over the ages, but there aren’t any documentations available to support or deny these assertions.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
The Amarr tried that with the Sabik and all that did was simply driving them away to fester somewhere else. [etc.]


A few people may object to me saying so, but ...

... the idea behind the Sani Sabik isn't really something separate and distinct. It really is like having a deadly shadow. It's a permanent burden.

The Amarr as a society are caught up in the same things as the Sani: they care deeply about power and hierarchy, seeing themselves as chosen, fated to rule. Even the interest in blood is already present in beliefs about inherently worthy bloodlines and godflesh.

The difference isn't so much a new idea as the loss of one: the Sani seem to be what happens when the Amarr lose their faith.

The god of Amarr is basically benevolent. The god of Sani Sabik is cruel, indifferent, or absent. There are plenty of different versions of the Sani, but that's the only really fundamental difference.

Even if it were wiped out completely, it would never be gone forever. And the Amarr are vigilant against it, not because they think they can purge it forever, but because of what their heretics are like. A focus on power, hierarchy, and blood, without the belief that their duty is ultimately to aid others, results in....

Well.

I've always been unsettled by the idea that the Amarr would be better off if they lost their faith. Or that the rest of us would, either.

There is no, or at least very slight, difference between the creation of new ideas and the modification of existing ones. Both turn up as an attempt to address a ‘lack’.

Just as how the ideas of popular revolution are born from a lack of civic justice or an engineering idea is born from a need to provide an as-yet non-existent solution to a technical problem, heretical ideas are born as means to address a shortcoming or a flaw in an already existing Faith.

During the course of de-popularising a heretical idea, it is also a good move to look back at the Faith and see exactly how and why the heresy can spring up. Perhaps some passages of Scripture are simply too vague and open for a heretical interpretation. Maybe the Scripture didn’t address a certain conundrum in a particularly satisfactory manner. Once the problem is identified, get the theologians together and have them figure out how to fix the problem. You know, the usual ‘argue about the meaning of the Words, come into agreement, write a book about it, distribute it around and go around holding seminars’. That’s what theology is for, and they have the advantages of space-age information technology to help things along.

Finally, just because we have an idea on how to fix something does not mean that the idea will actually help to do so. Ideas are products of the human consciousness, and as such will always be vulnerable to human error. What's important is that the attempt is made, the flaws are identified and addressed and the idea be adjusted or discarded accordingly.

An idea, especially the one you are trying to be rid of, is like herpes. It does not really go away entirely. It remains, mutates, resurfaces, gets depopularised or suppressed, goes back underground, festers, mutates, etc and then resurfaces when the optimal conditions are met. It's best to treat an idea as a chronic viral infection than a stubborn stain on the carpet.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#94 - 2016-01-06 03:12:43 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
During the course of de-popularising a heretical idea, it is also a good move to look back at the Faith and see exactly how and why the heresy can spring up. Perhaps some passages of Scripture are simply too vague and open for a heretical interpretation. Maybe the Scripture didn’t address a certain conundrum in a particularly satisfactory manner. Once the problem is identified, get the theologians together and have them figure out how to fix the problem. You know, the usual ‘argue about the meaning of the Words, come into agreement, write a book about it, distribute it around and go around holding seminars’. That’s what theology is for, and they have the advantages of space-age information technology to help things along.


Respectfully, Mr. Egivand ... is there some reason you think they haven't done that?

Like, a lot?

Also, you're assuming that the Sani heresies come from educated circles. I'm sure some do-- claiming to follow the "original form" of the scriptures and so on (the Amarrian scripture is kind of a living document, so it's not implausible).

A lot seem to come from the ranks of petty nobility, though. (The Blood Raiders are historically unusual.) The pattern seems to go something like this: a bunch of bored, resentful kids from minor holder families get fed up with not being able to advance their stations fast enough to suit them (social climbing in the Empire takes generations, and the Amarr live a really long time). These kids decide to form secret society in which they will celebrate their own worthiness and maybe do a little cooperative furthering of goals. Then, somebody finds Grandfather's old book of heretical occult practice, and off it all goes (it likely gets there even without the book, just, not as fast).

It's not usually the poor, or even scholars, who get in trouble this way. It's powerful people dissatisfied with the power they have. The Empire is slow to promote on merit, and maybe for stability's sake that's not a bad thing (note that at least one of the petty holder families in my example had existing Sani influence in the house; promoting them on merit could have led to a cult forming with even higher status), but it does leave certain people looking for other outlets from time to time.

So, respectfully-- maybe it wouldn't be wrong to assume that the Amarr are smart enough to have thought of the easy answers?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2016-01-06 03:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
During the course of de-popularising a heretical idea, it is also a good move to look back at the Faith and see exactly how and why the heresy can spring up. Perhaps some passages of Scripture are simply too vague and open for a heretical interpretation. Maybe the Scripture didn’t address a certain conundrum in a particularly satisfactory manner. Once the problem is identified, get the theologians together and have them figure out how to fix the problem. You know, the usual ‘argue about the meaning of the Words, come into agreement, write a book about it, distribute it around and go around holding seminars’. That’s what theology is for, and they have the advantages of space-age information technology to help things along.


Respectfully, Mr. Egivand ... is there some reason you think they haven't done that?

Like, a lot?

Also, you're assuming that the Sani heresies come from educated circles. I'm sure some do-- claiming to follow the "original form" of the scriptures and so on (the Amarrian scripture is kind of a living document, so it's not implausible).

A lot seem to come from the ranks of petty nobility, though. (The Blood Raiders are historically unusual.) The pattern seems to go something like this: a bunch of bored, resentful kids from minor holder families get fed up with not being able to advance their stations fast enough to suit them (social climbing in the Empire takes generations, and the Amarr live a really long time). These kids decide to form secret society in which they will celebrate their own worthiness and maybe do a little cooperative furthering of goals. Then, somebody finds Grandfather's old book of heretical occult practice, and off it all goes (it likely gets there even without the book, just, not as fast).

It's not usually the poor, or even scholars, who get in trouble this way. It's powerful people dissatisfied with the power they have. The Empire is slow to promote on merit, and maybe for stability's sake that's not a bad thing (note that at least one of the petty holder families in my example had existing Sani influence in the house; promoting them on merit could have led to a cult forming with even higher status), but it does leave certain people looking for other outlets from time to time.

So, respectfully-- maybe it wouldn't be wrong to assume that the Amarr are smart enough to have thought of the easy answers?


This is a different set of problem. My original argument was about containment of a dangerous idea, where the root of the problem comes from an issue found in the Scriptures and the Faith.

This kid problem you mention has a different root, a social root, and as such, requires a different set of prunes. In this instance, I think what the Amarr Empire would do is to either expel them or drag them to the courts and have them publically decried and made an example of. In no way does 'burning books' solve this particular problem. Personally, I believe in engaging the kids in dialogue is a better solution.

As for the adults, then the problem is less about the idea and more about the 'people'. They knowingly take on the misguided idea to advance their station. This is a different from containing the spread of a dangerous idea.

As for the 'merit' issue, well, if you don't want more dangerous ideas spring up because of it, maybe fix it? As I already mentioned, an idea, especially dangerous ones, is like herpes and is to be treated as such. What is one of the ways to prevent infection and incubation of said infection and the resurgence of said infection? Make the conditions unsuitable for infection to grow.

Again, I emphasize that the birth or the resurgence of an idea is tied to a need to address a 'lack'. If you remove the 'lack', you remove the conditions that allows the birth or the resurgence of the idea. As for an idea that is already born, either anew or from the buds of an existing one, and circulating around, you depopularise it to discourage the population from taking on the idea.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Barrdyn Cesaille
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2016-01-06 04:18:20 UTC
Perhaps it's time for the Empire to cease their backwards ways and look to the future?
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2016-01-06 08:18:13 UTC
Barrdyn Cesaille wrote:
Perhaps it's time for the Empire to cease their backwards ways and look to the future?

Perhaps it's time for the Federation to become Reclaimed and look to the future?

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Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2016-01-06 08:31:47 UTC
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
"The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited.
Be Careful. Pure Thought is the Instigator of Sin.
Be Watchful. Free Thought is the Begetter of Disorder.
Be Respectful. Uniform Thought is the Way of Life.
The Mercy of our Emperor is Limitless. His Rule is Benign and Righteous. His Love is Perpetual."
- The Scriptures, Book I, The Code of Demeanor

There will be a burning once a suitable location has been sourced.


I would like to offer to burn them at the entrance of a CONCORD station. After all, we should show them what we think about their "presents". We can do it in space, let them see the flames on the filth. And let everyone passing by throw their torch!

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Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#99 - 2016-01-06 09:06:02 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Barrdyn Cesaille wrote:
Perhaps it's time for the Empire to cease their backwards ways and look to the future?

Perhaps it's time for the Federation to become Reclaimed and look to the future?

Tell that to the new Emperor/Empress ?

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2016-01-06 09:09:14 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Barrdyn Cesaille wrote:
Perhaps it's time for the Empire to cease their backwards ways and look to the future?

Perhaps it's time for the Federation to become Reclaimed and look to the future?

Tell that to the new Emperor/Empress ?

I won't tell Them anything. I will just pray.
And you probably should pray too.

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