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Mass Burning of Max Amarria [Postponed]

Author
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#41 - 2016-01-03 22:12:33 UTC
You can kill a fire, but there'll always be someone else to light a new one. The Udorians and Ni-Kunni's ideas still live, do they not? We even know a thing or two about the Takmahl, Talocan and others and they are for all intents and purposes extinct. Of course there are obviously extremes which might end all civilization in our cluster and our repositories of ideas, thoughts and more might follow suit but taking any argument to such extremes is somewhat silly.

Barring another truly cataclysmic event and given the state of our technology, it would prove sufficiently difficult to kill an idea in New Eden today that I will liken it to impossible. It certainly can't be achieved by a group of capsuleers huffing blue smoke from burning datapads.
Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#42 - 2016-01-03 22:34:34 UTC
I think that people misunderstand something about the Amarr. We love our old fashioned paper books. The rest of the cluster might use datapads, but they are missing out. There's nothing like the tactile feel of paper in one's hands.
Why, the Court Chamberlain's printing press takes up an entire moon!
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#43 - 2016-01-03 22:51:04 UTC
I would ask if you are seriously printing Max Amarria so you can burn it, but I don't want to know if that's actually the case. Who does take it upon themselves to print heresy on pulped fiber in the Empire anyway? I'd think that'd be a risky job.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2016-01-03 23:00:27 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
You can kill a fire, but there'll always be someone else to light a new one. The Udorians and Ni-Kunni's ideas still live, do they not? We even know a thing or two about the Takmahl, Talocan and others and they are for all intents and purposes extinct. Of course there are obviously extremes which might end all civilization in our cluster and our repositories of ideas, thoughts and more might follow suit but taking any argument to such extremes is somewhat silly.

Barring another truly cataclysmic event and given the state of our technology, it would prove sufficiently difficult to kill an idea in New Eden today that I will liken it to impossible. It certainly can't be achieved by a group of capsuleers huffing blue smoke from burning datapads.


Respectfully, you're mistaking something whose bones can be picked over for a living, breathing idea. It's the difference between "religion" and "mythology."

If basically no one really believes something anymore, for this purpose, it's dead. Not that it can't come back, but it probably won't look all that much the same even if it does.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#45 - 2016-01-03 23:05:34 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
First, they burn the books. Then, they burn the people.

"Then"? They already burn people.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2016-01-03 23:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
I would ask if you are seriously printing Max Amarria so you can burn it, but I don't want to know if that's actually the case. Who does take it upon themselves to print heresy on pulped fiber in the Empire anyway? I'd think that'd be a risky job.


Now this, I'm also curious about. On one hand, it seems like a lot to insist that they burn only existing effigies. On the other ... uh. Yeah. Doesn't printing it just risk accidentally spreading it further if a few bales fall off the transport?

... maybe they could have some sort of festival involving data devices, large hammers, and, I don't know, a bunch of brooms, after?
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#47 - 2016-01-04 00:16:56 UTC
I highly doubt Holy Mother intends to purpose make copies. More likely, any printed versions of the 'Max Amarria' already in distribution that can be found and aquired will be destroyed.

Holy Mother wasn't joking when she said we like our traditionally made books, and no doubt some distributions of this publication would have been made in paper to fulfill that particular taste.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2016-01-04 01:13:36 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
You can kill a fire, but there'll always be someone else to light a new one. The Udorians and Ni-Kunni's ideas still live, do they not? We even know a thing or two about the Takmahl, Talocan and others and they are for all intents and purposes extinct. Of course there are obviously extremes which might end all civilization in our cluster and our repositories of ideas, thoughts and more might follow suit but taking any argument to such extremes is somewhat silly.

Barring another truly cataclysmic event and given the state of our technology, it would prove sufficiently difficult to kill an idea in New Eden today that I will liken it to impossible. It certainly can't be achieved by a group of capsuleers huffing blue smoke from burning datapads.


Respectfully, you're mistaking something whose bones can be picked over for a living, breathing idea. It's the difference between "religion" and "mythology."

If basically no one really believes something anymore, for this purpose, it's dead. Not that it can't come back, but it probably won't look all that much the same even if it does.


You do realise that the idea is going to flee to the Federation and all the dark places and wait to fester and resurface in mutated forms.

Remind me how the squashing of the Sani Sabik went.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2016-01-04 03:13:06 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
You do realise that the idea is going to flee to the Federation and all the dark places and wait to fester and resurface in mutated forms.

Remind me how the squashing of the Sani Sabik went.

Well ... that's just it, though. The Sani are why the Amarr get so upset about heresy in the first place. If it was an easy problem to solve, they might not be so aggressive about it.

It's a little like having a shadow that sometimes reaches out and stabs people. You can try to stop it by surrounding yourself in light, but it's hard to lead a life like that. Something will go wrong, and you'll be stuck wrestling with your shadow all over again.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2016-01-04 03:33:09 UTC
Ideas, like demagogues, can't simply be eradicated with no consequence. They have to be discredited first lest you risk turning them into martyrs.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2016-01-04 04:09:07 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Ideas, like demagogues, can't simply be eradicated with no consequence. They have to be discredited first lest you risk turning them into martyrs.


... oh, gods and spirits. You're going to make me spell this out?

The destruction of an idea's primary proponents and harsh repression of secondary and tertiary, is actually a pretty good way to kill it. If a wider community supported it, you press that, too. If you see signs that your initial efforts produced a rallying cry, you keep the pressure on until only the few remaining, complaining voices can be safely ignored. If that alone won't do it, you let them get just far enough that you can justify crushing them again, then you do exactly that. You show just enough mercy to make it clear that things will be all right if people comply, and very not all right if they don't.

It's not nice, and it's not something an open society can afford to do, but, well, being "nice" isn't really what autocratic rulership is about. The idea that ruthless repression of undesired ideas is necessarily in any way self-defeating is ... well, it's self-congratulatory propaganda. It's part of the story that the proponents of open societies seem to like telling-- not necessarily because it's true, though.

Most of known human history has been spent living under one autocracy or another, and it's not because the ancestors were stupid or cowardly people. Most people don't care very much about power games and high ideals, in this age or in any other; they want peace, quiet, a family, a life rich in love and good cheer.

Playing on that is not fully reliable (nothing is), but it's far from a sure way to lose.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2016-01-04 04:41:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
The Amarr tried that with the Sabik and all that did was simply driving them away to fester somewhere else. As a matter of fact, during the Amarr Empire's weaker days, the heretical idea faced a resurgence within the Amarr Empire. Had you forgotten about Karsoth? The idea within the Amarr Empire wasn't eradicated at all, it simply went underground and silently spread like a virus with a very long incubation period.

The Amarr tried that with the Minmatar and all it did was cause a series of murmurings, minor uprisings, silent resistance and etc that cumulatively led to the Minmatar Rebellion. The repression did not kill the idea, the idea morph into a constantly metastasizing cancer.

Heck, the Caldari State attempted to squash the ideas of Revolution and look where it got them. Tibus Heth!

Repressions do not kill ideas, only suppress them. Just as how longer dormancy periods lead to ever more violent seismic events, the longer an idea is suppressed the more more damaging the uprising/resurgence when it inevitably breaks out.

Eradication simply does not work.

An idea is going to stay, like it or not. What really needs to be done is to demonstrate that the idea is ludicrously daft. It has to be defanged before it can be filed away and eventually be forgotten (and perhaps be dug up, only to have texts refuting said idea also be dug up that makes the whole thing look ridiculous enough that they will be taken as historical curiosity than anything worth following).

Squashing an idea before it's thoroughly addressed and refuted sends all the wrong messages. It suggests that the idea has merit. It leads to the audience taking the idea and silently spread it around and nurture its fire. Given time, it will grow and conflagrate and there will be another Sabik and another Rebellion. The idea has to be addressed, its merits debated, refuted and ridiculed, so that those who didn't already buy into the idea will see it as nonsense, get the message that buying the idea makes them look like idiots and be discouraged from taking it up. Then the idea will not stick, will be relegated into the fringes and its spread contained or, at least, much easier to manage.

And the next time somebody else tries to sell the idea again, dig up all the records that demonstrated that the idea is daft, show it and use it as refutation material, and the idea becomes harmless.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#53 - 2016-01-04 08:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Skyweir Kinnison
Captain Jenneth, your argument on repression of ideas only works in a closed system.

The moment an idea can be taken outside the sphere of repression, it becomes immune to that repression. Another country, continent or planet gives refuge, let alone an entire cluster. From that refuge, the proponents of the idea may infiltrate it back to the supporters under repression. Countless histories of countless cultures demonstrate this immunity.

The most effective sanction against an idea is satire. Once an absurd meme associates with an idea, it loses power. Or, if valid for a great many people, becomes more powerful through the humour. In this way, Liberty sorts the risible from the useful. Any idea that survives being laughed at, is worth taking seriously.

Personally, I despair at book-burning. Nonetheless, I try to look on this as some sort of cultural artefact, a purely symbolic expression of "faith" in the same manner as the dressing up and incense. Since it is being organised by a group founded on their unwholesome obsession with the past, it has no more impact - even in the Empire - than any other splinter group's ritual. After all, my understanding is that the Theology Council has little to no problem with this text and is basically ignoring it.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.

Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#54 - 2016-01-04 10:25:04 UTC
Mmm, I had a feeling if I waited until today someone else might pick up the torch. I didn't expect it to be so eloquently put though.

"What they said."
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2016-01-04 10:48:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Paper books and recipients are truly awesome - I really love them - but I am not going back to stone age if I have to truly be practical.

If I want to keep something stored, I use implants, not a clumsy notebook. If I want instant access to information, I use wetware databases, not huge, voluminous inefficient shelves full of books.

Bookshelves are to be treasured like old architecture has to, not like actual modern tools.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#56 - 2016-01-04 10:59:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
You do realise that the idea is going to flee to the Federation and all the dark places and wait to fester and resurface in mutated forms.

Remind me how the squashing of the Sani Sabik went.

Well ... that's just it, though. The Sani are why the Amarr get so upset about heresy in the first place. If it was an easy problem to solve, they might not be so aggressive about it.

It's a little like having a shadow that sometimes reaches out and stabs people. You can try to stop it by surrounding yourself in light, but it's hard to lead a life like that. Something will go wrong, and you'll be stuck wrestling with your shadow all over again.


Alternatively, I guess you can also turn down the light, but that sounds a bit nihilistic said like that...

_________________________

More seriously though, to all those above that seem to held a few examples as a true statement of general facts, please note that the case of the Udorians, and especially the Ealur, among other crushed civilization by the Amarrian might, are relegated in their original form to mythos. What truly continues to live from that mythos has long been incorporated into the Amarrian culture, the same way Amarrian culture has been imprinted on their own. They are standing historical examples of a full cultural assimilation.

On the other hands, the Empire also has indeed plenty examples where their attempts have not been successful, the Minmatar being a prime example of it, although it is debatable either it would have succeeded or not without all the external help that went to their benefit, to begin with.

Heresies like the Sabik or EoM, too, are good examples as well.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#57 - 2016-01-04 14:04:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Elmund Egivand wrote:
The Amarr tried that with the Sabik and all that did was simply driving them away to fester somewhere else. [etc.]


A few people may object to me saying so, but ...

... the idea behind the Sani Sabik isn't really something separate and distinct. It really is like having a deadly shadow. It's a permanent burden.

The Amarr as a society are caught up in the same things as the Sani: they care deeply about power and hierarchy, seeing themselves as chosen, fated to rule. Even the interest in blood is already present in beliefs about inherently worthy bloodlines and godflesh.

The difference isn't so much a new idea as the loss of one: the Sani seem to be what happens when the Amarr lose their faith.

The god of Amarr is basically benevolent. The god of Sani Sabik is cruel, indifferent, or absent. There are plenty of different versions of the Sani, but that's the only really fundamental difference.

Even if it were wiped out completely, it would never be gone forever. And the Amarr are vigilant against it, not because they think they can purge it forever, but because of what their heretics are like. A focus on power, hierarchy, and blood, without the belief that their duty is ultimately to aid others, results in....

Well.

I've always been unsettled by the idea that the Amarr would be better off if they lost their faith. Or that the rest of us would, either.

Skyweir Kinnison wrote:
Captain Jenneth, your argument on repression of ideas only works in a closed system.

The moment an idea can be taken outside the sphere of repression, it becomes immune to that repression. Another country, continent or planet gives refuge, let alone an entire cluster. From that refuge, the proponents of the idea may infiltrate it back to the supporters under repression. Countless histories of countless cultures demonstrate this immunity.

The most effective sanction against an idea is satire. Once an absurd meme associates with an idea, it loses power. Or, if valid for a great many people, becomes more powerful through the humour. In this way, Liberty sorts the risible from the useful. Any idea that survives being laughed at, is worth taking seriously.

Personally, I despair at book-burning. Nonetheless, I try to look on this as some sort of cultural artefact, a purely symbolic expression of "faith" in the same manner as the dressing up and incense. Since it is being organised by a group founded on their unwholesome obsession with the past, it has no more impact - even in the Empire - than any other splinter group's ritual. After all, my understanding is that the Theology Council has little to no problem with this text and is basically ignoring it.


I don't think we actually disagree on anything you just said, Mr. Kinnison. Sani entities have fled the Empire before (including the Blood Raiders, but more notably the Takmahl, who apparently accomplished some technological feats worthy of the Ancients, then imploded).

Others have died where they stood, though.

Satire's a fun approach. I do note that its availability hasn't prevented all slips in the Federation, though. It's also hard to satirize anything that gets extreme enough that it can't be easily exaggerated, so ... I guess I'd say it's an open-society tool that's most useful against moderate forces in danger of becoming truly extreme, not against those that have already done so.

I can't really imagine satirizing Nauplius, for example.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#58 - 2016-01-04 14:07:54 UTC
Nauplius is satire. Intentionally or not.
Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#59 - 2016-01-04 14:35:30 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

I can't really imagine satirizing Nauplius, for example.


You'd be surprised what a truly creative satirist can do. The film-maker Adenoid Hynkel, for example, made an excellent and bitingly accurate film lampooning the Duvalier regime, so successfully that many young people only think of the U-Nats as thuggish clowns - perhaps cheating history of the lessons we should have learned, but making it very difficult for hardline right-wingers not to be laughed at outright by the more impressionable demographic, leaving them with a constituency of bitter, poor and old people.

Interesting, the holoreel was so good, it accurately predicted the rise of Tibus Heth and his crazy gang in the side character of Nappa BalonI. The characterisation was picked up by many more contemporary writers, leading to a rather excellent series of sitcoms.

Nauplius would be a doddle to satirise if, as Captain Del'thul notes, he wasn't already a joke. However, he's also so insignificant - a legend merely in his own lunchtime - that most people in the Federation won't have heard of him, and the ratings prediction would scupper the pilot right away.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2016-01-04 14:37:41 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Nauplius is satire. Intentionally or not.

I'll concede that he's ludicrous. As an act, though, he's way overdone.