Missions & Complexes

bears might actually learn how to form a fleet and break camps in order to farm to their hearts galore

oh well

Sketch, Stop spamming this topic with your multiposting.

And dream on about lowsec camp breaking. Few are going to do that and then all the work they have done on incursions will be for naught. Dream on for fat targets but lowsec is still going to remain lowsec.

And not account for risk from player DCs or lack of alertness in a group op? wut?

I now need to ask if you have ever been in a group in a nullsec site?

Risk from players is what drives EVE. Taking that into account is the whole reason they made incursions in the first place.

Incursions are lowering the power of nullsec alliances to force their members to fight or go on ops. They are often better grouping then the "do what I say or you are out of this corp and alliance" BS that goes on half the time out there. They get people out of the IVs.

The incursions are working as intended and do not need to be touched.

bro, stop assuming you think you know what I want...i could care less there are more targets in low sec

what I care about is inflation and the raw isk potential in high sec....these two things are out of control

you disagree, thats fine, but please stop thinking you know my motives simply because you see that im in a 0.0 alliance

as for breaking low sec camps, yeah I know it'll never happen now....because there is no reason to go to low sec for incursions. However, hypothetically speaking, if Incursions had been introduced as "low sec only, lots of LP for cool mods people will want, pvp needed fits with logis, gangs of minimum 5 for small sites and say 50 for the harder ones" there would have been some people that said "oh this looks like a gold mine, lets work together, fend off the meanies and make some money." Sure, the risk averse people who believe theres a camp of 100 hictors and battleships on every low sec gate wouldn't have gone, but someone would have. There would have been pvp, pve and isk galore.

Instead, we have WoW raids in Eve. Yay.

Basically I'm hoping that the next big pve venture CCP throws in is like this, i.e. low sec ONLY with rare modules only attainable from the LP earned at these sites, and smart NPCs that require pvp fits and engage new hostiles on grid (i.e. would be pirates).

Incursions had a chance to be the buff low sec needs (high sec by contrast did not need a buff). Sure Incursions are worth doing in low sec now, but the majority of players simply say "why bother with the risk when we can make a pretty decent amount in high sec quite safely."

The guy was already called out for being a moron, but the practical difference in payouts is actually higher than 66%, simply because of less competition and fewer people running the good sites.
And again, you really have no business complaining about something you have no knowledge of.

But inflation and raw isk potential in lowsec is fine as it is? It's worth noting that both are notably higher than what's in highsec, so you really can't complain about the inflation caused by incursions, while arguing that they'd have been much better implemented in lowsec.

You mean like goons? See, that's the main problem with lowsec incursions as they are; there's just no reason for big alliances NOT to run them. Nullsec is still better, because of moon goo and higher isk potential from nullsec sanctums (remember that lowsec incursions require a lot of moving, cutting into your real isk/hour), so the big alliances have no reason to focus solely on lowsec. But then, since you don't actually need to invest anything other then guys looking to make money into running the sites, there's no reason for them NOT to run them either. Basically because of how incursions work, there's no reason not to just be a nullsec sov holding alliance that does incursions in lowsec for isk, because anyone who isn't simply gets steamrolled by the bigger guys.

If you're a highsec player, this basically means lowsec-only incursions would be dead to you. No reason to go down to them because some big alliance is going to show up and force you out anyway.



Sec status hits in lowsec are what need to go if lowsec is ever going to see life again. As it stands living in lowsec tends to have the nasty side-effect of making it impossible to go to highsec, which is kind of a big problem.
Besides, people seem to LIKE these WoW raids, and we've been in need of some group oriented PVE for a long time now.

Which is exactly what they'd say if there were no highsec incursions. The only reason WH space saw any sort of success is that the big alliances CAN'T just move in massive fleets whenever they feel like it, and there isn't really any incentive to even try (given the slow respawn on WH sites). If WH space was as easy to get to/move around in as lowsec, there would be no WH corps, just big nullsec alliances running the sites for added income.

Ok, to all the idiots who are saying that "Incursions should have been implemented in lowsec from the start", may I just take this opportunity to remind you how incursions started? Namely, they started in highsec, the first highsec incursion timed out without being completed. The first several incursions lasted for several days before they were taken down. It took nearly 2 months before we got to the point that we started flattening them in less than a day. It was nearly 3 months before people figured out that vanguards paid the best isk (and not just because of the fleet formup time). It was nearly 6 months before they became popular and everyone started getting on the incursion bandwagon - till about june most people were still claiming that lvl 4's paid more than incursions, and there were still a few fools claiming it till august.

So lets take a look at it like if, from the theoretical idea that they started out only in lowsec/nullsec, and were never in highsec in the first place:

To start, they would have been ignored, with the occasional complaints of people who continued ratting and got wtfpwned by sansha's at gates/in belts. Eventually some small groups may have tried running the occasional vanguard site. Here again, I was one of the first few people to try running incursions in lowsec - my results?

I got camped into a system by some pirates who had carriers already in the area, and a 15 man support fleet. Please also remember at this time that typical fleets consisted of drakes, myrmidons, and the occasional pimped person flying in a nighthawk/slepnir. Oh, and only idiots ran OTA's because they were impossible (there is another thing that took a good 4 months for most people to figure out) so once a system went to OTA's only you were pretty much done with that system. After about 3 months or so goons started running the lowsec incursions, focusing mostly on running assaults HQ's (I ran a few with them), but not really making spectacular isk. It wasn't really until this last fall that people started regularly running lowsec incursions, and having them be more profitable than highsec ones.

To start, my results would have been the same as pretty much anyone else's. And if there had been no highsec incursions to get people used to them, people would have written them off, with only the occasional small group running them from time to time, and they would be even more ignored then lvl 5's are now (after all, no one would be able to finish the mothership sites). And you would continue to be complaining about how lvl 4's need to be nerfed and moved to lowsec.

So please stfu on the subject of "incursions should have been lowsec/nullsec only.

-Arazel

So basically if they completely changed the reward system, and changed the availability of sites, then you'd be happy? That sounds an awful lot like WH space, just in lowsec. Why not just go to WH space if that's what you want?

Therein lies the problem. It's not paranoia, it's just how the game works. Of course the fleets running the incursions aren't huge (though they are bigger than what you could amass by telling carebears you want to go farm in lowsec), that;s because that's just the guys looking to make isk. If you started showing up in fleets big enough to drive out the goon carebears, what do you think is going to happen? Suddenly they have more targets to shoot, and they start bringing more pvpers. Nullsec alliances have a much larger pool of much more pvp-oriented people to draw from, and will pretty much always have that advantage.

Why? It's literally the most popular feature they've introduced in the last couple years, it's sprung up its own community, of thousands of people, so what, other than that you don't like it, makes raids a bad thing? Eve still has plenty of pvp, it still has highsec suicide ganks and all the stuff that makes eve what it is, so why get all upset over CCP catering to people who want raid-like content?




Literally the only reason WH space is habitable is the fact that large alliances can't just roll up a massive fleet and gank you. The difficulty of finding WHs/moving through them is what keeps large groups of people out.

As for the less risk averse people; that option already exists, it's called low sec incursions. The incentive is already there for people to run them, but most don't. Why? Because most people living in highsec ARE risk averse. Deal with it.

You mean like missing out on nearly 40someodd percent extra rewards, and less competition? (oh and no revenant BPCs)

IMO, hisec incursions provide too much reward for their risk when compared to most lowsec/nullsec opportunities. They essentially break the risk vs reward paradigm that encourages players to venture into lowsec and nullsec for "bigger" rewards.

However, I also believe they provide an extremely beneficial service to EvE by creating an environment for teamwork. And lets be frank, learning to play in a team is pretty much at the core of living in lowsec and nullsec. And I fully support game mechanics that enourage teamplay, meaning there should be definite advantages and rewards for doing so.

Its really the entire reward system, and not just hisec incursions, that needs tweaking. The system should reward people for:

1.) Dynamic Risks (based on the likelyhood of losing your ship/pod to NPC's and/or Players).
2.) Investment Risks (be it raw isk, time, and/or structures in space).
3.) Social Risks (reward working as a group, especially if violating the social trust results in losses).

Most of the time, the Risks from NPCs are much less than the risks from players, and this needs to be heavily accounted for.
On the surface, our system attempts the above, but has enough skewed areas to throw the current system out of balance!

Lets also be frank:
Nullsec Belt Ratting and Anomalies are too-often solo activities in which most of the risks involved can be signficantly reduced.
There is an inherent Investment and Social Risk to living in Nullsec; living there requires a constant vigilance to avoid losses.

* hit post without fully editing my list.... *

If I were to rank PvE activities by risk:
1.) C5-6 WH combat sites.
2.) Nullsec Plexes
3.) Nullsec/Lowsec Incursions
4.) C4-3 WH Combat sites.
5.) Lowsec Plexes/anomalies
6.) Lowsec Mining
7.) Hisec Incursions
8.) Hisec Mining
9.) Nullsec Belts/anomalies
10.) Nullsec Mining
11.) Hisec Mission Running

I'm not sure where to put nullsec or lowsec Missioning... and I'll also admit the risks in running plexes and incursion varies SIGNFICANTLY with the plex/site, as well with how much space and friends you have.