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is there any plan to nerf the svipul ship ?
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Vile Belief
Scarlet Trading
#21 - 2016-01-02 06:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vile Belief
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Vile Belief wrote:
When did players become professional game developers?

Just because you eat food every day does not make you a chef.

I guess when Fozzie, Rise and Larrakin were hired by CCP, which clearly meant they met the criteria CCP were looking for (probably facetious of me. Alternatively, they were professional game designers that happened to play Eve)

The rest of us? Nah, we're just armchair critics, which doesn't mean our criticism is wrong; just that we aren't perhaps the most qualified to address issues even when we know they exist.


The problem is that you guys have no idea what it means to properly balance something. You don't see the code, the script, the budgets, get usable skill to make something happen. You're just on the outside looking in.

Yes, it's good to give feedback. It's just most of you fail to understand that there is a difference between saying whether something is fun or not versus telling someone add more salt here, less pepper there.

Going out there screaming "NERF" based on usage is not proper system balance. Doing rogue nerfs to a system is a sure-fire way to unbalance the system even more. Systems are made to work together, not independently.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#22 - 2016-01-02 07:27:03 UTC
Vile Belief wrote:
The problem is that you guys have no idea what it means to properly balance something. You don't see the code, the script, the budgets, get usable skill to make something happen. You're just on the outside looking in.

Yes, it's good to give feedback. It's just most of you fail to understand that there is a difference between saying whether something is fun or not versus telling someone add more salt here, less pepper there.

Going out there screaming "NERF" based on usage is not proper system balance. Doing rogue nerfs to a system is a sure-fire way to unbalance the system even more. Systems are made to work together, not independently.

Calm down, forum poster.

Yeah that's kind of what was said I think. No need for all the aggression.
Solecist Project
#23 - 2016-01-02 07:45:42 UTC
Winers.
Nothing but a bunch of winers.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#24 - 2016-01-02 10:46:10 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
That's how the whole focus group idea came about, as a way to tap into the broader in game experience and knowledge of players, which is sometimes difficult to do directly via the CSM because of the NDA the CSM members sign.


I think more than anything, this highlights how poor a result you get when so many CSM members never even undock or have any grasp of the day to day play experience of your average player. CSM is going to be garbage so long as its mostly people electing politicians to represent players, or arguably even worse, purposely filling seats with obstructionist candidates.

Svipul is way too good. But, like the Ishtar, it will probably be slowly whittled down into normalcy rather than be fixed soon.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2016-01-02 11:29:08 UTC
Vile Belief wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Vile Belief wrote:
When did players become professional game developers?

Just because you eat food every day does not make you a chef.

I guess when Fozzie, Rise and Larrakin were hired by CCP, which clearly meant they met the criteria CCP were looking for (probably facetious of me. Alternatively, they were professional game designers that happened to play Eve)

The rest of us? Nah, we're just armchair critics, which doesn't mean our criticism is wrong; just that we aren't perhaps the most qualified to address issues even when we know they exist.


The problem is that you guys have no idea what it means to properly balance something. You don't see the code, the script, the budgets, get usable skill to make something happen. You're just on the outside looking in.

Yes, it's good to give feedback. It's just most of you fail to understand that there is a difference between saying whether something is fun or not versus telling someone add more salt here, less pepper there.

Going out there screaming "NERF" based on usage is not proper system balance. Doing rogue nerfs to a system is a sure-fire way to unbalance the system even more. Systems are made to work together, not independently.


I'm actually not basing my agreement with a nerf on the ship's kb stats, but rather, having used it myself, I can say without hesitation that it is a little OP. Compared to other T3Ds, it just stands a tad taller, a tad more muscular, and it's not meant to. It's meant to be different, maybe have a few dimples where the other three don't. But it's not meant to so blatantly outshine them to the point of making the other three almost redundant.

Which they're not, of course, you can still kill a Svipul, these things depend on a wide variety of variables that have to be taken into account. Of course, a large number of players are experiencing these variables and as a result, in the short time the Svip has existed, it has one of the top killboards out of all ships ever. Of all time. In just a year.

But you're right, the killboard is no indication of a ship's overarching capabilities. That would be silly, of course, to presume that the fleet theorycrafters haven't gone and done their homework, and figured out what works best for their fleets, artificially and disproportionately inflating the numbers of them appearing on...

the...


killboards....

ohwait.

Maybe the killboards are an indicator of something afterall.

Anyway, when it comes right down to it actually, all T3Ds are a problem. But they don't need a nerf, per se, in this regard. What they need is to be made riskier to use. Because right now, they're about as risky to deploy as an assault frigate. Which means, for those that have trained into them, assault frigates are all but redundant. The only thing that makes assault frigates viable now is as intermediary ships for people training into T3Ds.

That being said, I've killed T3Ds with assault frigates, but the fights weren't easy and they shouldn't be. The power of these ships is in the right 'place'. The Svip though, she's a little more special than the others. She's not really supposed to be.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jenshae Chiroptera
#26 - 2016-01-02 14:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Valacus wrote:
Why they released T2 frig logi without nerfing the Svipul is beyond me. Oh yes, let's make small, fast, kitey fleets even more OP. Oh, but we won't bother removing off grid links yet, ensuring command destroyers never actually get used for their command ability. Should have just called them MJFG destroyers. That's all they really are. This last patch made no sense what-so-ever.
This confounds me.
You watch Fozzie on AT tournaments and he seems really jacked up, knows his stuff and such ... then his team releases another new game breaking ship instead of balancing what we already have ... Ugh

Seen how much tank Command Destroyers can get? The same as a cruiser with the sig of a frigate almost and then they have the micro jump drives. The ... fuuu ....huh?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Solecist Project
#27 - 2016-01-02 14:11:20 UTC

CCP is doing it right.
Shaking things up for fun is good.
They'll nerf it eventually anyway.

This thread smells of autism.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#28 - 2016-01-02 14:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Why they released T2 frig logi without nerfing the Svipul is beyond me. Oh yes, let's make small, fast, kitey fleets even more OP. Oh, but we won't bother removing off grid links yet, ensuring command destroyers never actually get used for their command ability. Should have just called them MJFG destroyers. That's all they really are. This last patch made no sense what-so-ever.
This confounds me.
You watch Fozzie on AT tournaments and he seems really jacked up, knows his stuff and such ... then his team releases another new game breaking ship instead of balancing what we already have ... Ugh

Seen how much tank Command Destroyers can get? The same as a cruiser with the sig of a frigate almost and then they have the micro jump drives. The ... fuuu ....huh?


They worked the better part of 2 years to try and balance frigates and cruisers (and for the most part to good effect) making sure it all works out just fine and then suddenly they introduce the T3D ships that **** all over it. It makes NO sense whatsoever and is repeated with the new Command dessies. I really don't get how they thought this would be a good idea.
Solecist Project
#29 - 2016-01-02 14:37:08 UTC
Gregor... they do this all the time.
Eventually they'll nerf it.
It's always been that way and it's part of the balancing.

Stop with the autism already, there is nothing broken here.

It's just people who wrongly believe there's something wrong ...
... just because there's ships who don't fall in line.

Which is the whole point. They want them to be that way to shake things up.
This thread just demands boringness and mediocrity for the sake of an imaginary balance!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#30 - 2016-01-02 14:40:04 UTC
Could it be that you're using Svipuls and don't wan them to go away :)

The whole "shake it up" makes no sense if they just had been working for 2 years (and adding more to it as they've not done all ships yet, AF wtf). It instantly diminishes their hard (and quite good) work into nothing.
Solecist Project
#31 - 2016-01-02 14:48:41 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Could it be that you're using Svipuls and don't wan them to go away :)

The whole "shake it up" makes no sense if they just had been working for 2 years (and adding more to it as they've not done all ships yet, AF wtf). It instantly diminishes their hard (and quite good) work into nothing.

I keep losing them and I constantly rant about them needing another midslot,
which would of course be insane. I know that very well.

It doesn't diminish anything, because they can change it whenever they want!

There's always a fotm, there's always something op,
it always got nerfed eventually and replaced by something different.

You can't deny that, it's this game's history.

So they spent time balancing things out ...
... so now the can shake things up again.

Until they nerf it.


So what's the fuzz actually about?
Are you scared they'll never ever nerf anything again ...
... or is it just a slight autism that makes people scream about things that aren't "perfect" ?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Vile Belief
Scarlet Trading
#32 - 2016-01-02 15:39:29 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I'm actually not basing my agreement with a nerf on the ship's kb stats, but rather, having used it myself, I can say without hesitation that it is a little OP. Compared to other T3Ds, it just stands a tad taller, a tad more muscular, and it's not meant to. It's meant to be different, maybe have a few dimples where the other three don't. But it's not meant to so blatantly outshine them to the point of making the other three almost redundant.


I'm sorry, but this is not enough to scream, "NERF!"

If you want a analogy to help your simple mind understand then here it is.

Let's say you have a pot of soup. Tasting the soup is a good way to determine if you need to add or remove ingredients. If you don't stir the soup, you could be extracting a poor sample that does not represent the entire pot of soup.

You sir, like in statistics, are just tasting either the top or the bottom or the middle of the soup. You're not even sampling from the pot itself. You're sampling from a bowl that some chef (e.g.: the developer) handed to you.

When you say things like, "Well, I flew the ship. It's broken sir." Is like saying you have no idea how to sample soup.

Please stop. Be constructive and help the developers understand if the ship is FUN or NOT FUN.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#33 - 2016-01-02 15:46:32 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Could it be that you're using Svipuls and don't wan them to go away :)

The whole "shake it up" makes no sense if they just had been working for 2 years (and adding more to it as they've not done all ships yet, AF wtf). It instantly diminishes their hard (and quite good) work into nothing.

I keep losing them and I constantly rant about them needing another midslot,
which would of course be insane. I know that very well.

It doesn't diminish anything, because they can change it whenever they want!

There's always a fotm, there's always something op,
it always got nerfed eventually and replaced by something different.

You can't deny that, it's this game's history.

So they spent time balancing things out ...
... so now the can shake things up again.

Until they nerf it.


So what's the fuzz actually about?
Are you scared they'll never ever nerf anything again ...
... or is it just a slight autism that makes people scream about things that aren't "perfect" ?


There's "things will always be out of balance some way or another" and "lol, Svipuls" :)
Jenshae Chiroptera
#34 - 2016-01-02 15:52:00 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
There's "things will always be out of balance some way or another" and "lol, Svipuls" :)
Not necessarily.

If they set parameters,

- Average fleet sizs are X
- Engagements should last Y time
- Fleet composition should comprise of Z

Then they can balance them. They can balance the damage cruisers can do to frigates and if they want they can hard cap that. They can balance the medium missiles and power against other cruisers, etc.
They can work out just the sort of tanks and spanks that would be put out.

Some of it is really silly, like they nerfed rails to fix Tengu but it is still better than Loki and now the Vulture has suffered compared to the Arty Sleipneir.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#35 - 2016-01-02 16:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
There's "things will always be out of balance some way or another" and "lol, Svipuls" :)
Not necessarily.

If they set parameters,

- Average fleet sizs are X
- Engagements should last Y time
- Fleet composition should comprise of Z

Then they can balance them. They can balance the damage cruisers can do to frigates and if they want they can hard cap that. They can balance the medium missiles and power against other cruisers, etc.
They can work out just the sort of tanks and spanks that would be put out.

Some of it is really silly, like they nerfed rails to fix Tengu but it is still better than Loki and now the Vulture has suffered compared to the Arty Sleipneir.


That would assume that the only form of pvp is fleets, which is silly. The issue with the rail tengu is entirely different from the Svipul/T3D

Svipuls and T3D were immediately recognised as "lol OP", anyone who didn't see that is either dumb or lying to himself. Throughout their initial ideas, testing and all that anyone could see this, we saw it and informed (using loud noises) CCP of this, they didn't listen. They introduced a ship that was dumb


Rails Tengus just sort of happened to be. Everyone went "lol rails", everyone went "lol hybrid tengu", then the rails buffs happened and because of "lol hybrid tengus" no one gave it any second thought (including CCP) till someone suddenly went "wait a minute, this is awesome" and then slowly people caught on to it and started to act like they figured it out themselves.


T3D, Svipuls and now the new Command Dessies are inexcusable. Rail tengus sneakily became freaks of nature, something that wasn't easily recognisable or predictable.
Solecist Project
#36 - 2016-01-02 16:23:57 UTC
"Svipuls and T3D were immediately recognised as "lol OP""

Yeah and they're fun to fly!
I love losing these ships a lot!

I haven't killed anything in it yet (GRRR2%HULLCROWGRRRRRR) but I don't care,
because I like flying them and that's all that matters! :D

What doesn't matter is an autistic crowd crying for a nerf of something that doesn't matter in the long run,
because it will get nerfed anyway and is completely in line with CCPs usual behaviour!


Pewpew! BOOM!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2016-01-02 16:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Hecate and Jackdaw are crap, buff them to be able to keep up with the Svipul and Confessor and the kill statistic will be more balanced. Blink

BTW, how are AFs doing now that they are safe from T3D in small plexes?

I'm my own NPC alt.
Gliese Casserres
Confused Bunnies Inc
#38 - 2016-01-02 16:28:48 UTC
Svipul has already been nerfed once. Keep your hands off my svipul!
Jenshae Chiroptera
#39 - 2016-01-02 16:43:47 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
... Svipuls and T3D were immediately recognised as "lol OP", anyone who didn't see that is either dumb or lying to himself. ...
Agreed. It was obvious in the proposed design. It was obvious from day one. It was obvious on the test server.

Just as obvious as Fozzie SOV was silly.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#40 - 2016-01-02 17:01:45 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
... Svipuls and T3D were immediately recognised as "lol OP", anyone who didn't see that is either dumb or lying to himself. ...
Agreed. It was obvious in the proposed design. It was obvious from day one. It was obvious on the test server.

Just as obvious as Fozzie SOV was silly.


One is a new ship that we didn't need, the other is a game mechanic that needed changing. Expecting Sov to change and somehow miraculously work overnight for everyone just isn't realistic.