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[Focus Group] Tactical Destroyers

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#241 - 2015-12-21 02:17:39 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
While I do agree with your statement, I feel assault frigates need a little "something" to give them an edge. They ought to be different, "specialised", yes? Well then ... what exactly are they specialised in? I always assumed they were beefier, damage dealing versions of the vanilla frigs; yet as it stands, they this role is completely overshadowed by T3 destroyers because T3Ds have taken over their sigradius bonus, and move at roughly the same speeds as well.

What I'm trying to get at, is that you may want to review their specialisation by giving them a little velocity buff as to ensure there's still a place for them. Different is one thing, no discussion there. But I also want better. Because I paid good ISK for it. Does that make sense to you?

The old 50% MWD sigradius reduction is no longer a selling point as T3Ds have it too. So... dare I suggest an 80% MWD sigradius reduction? A plain speed buff perhaps?

"Why speed" you ask? Well, because that would differentiate them from Tech III destroyers. Destroyers can retain their role as frigblapping machines with or without this modification; but I could once again undock an assault frig and feel like I've made a meaningful choice -- in this case, speed over gank/tank.

Your T1 frig would still be 'different' ; case in fact, a Rifter can fit scram/web/MWD whereas a Wolf only has 2 mids. It is by definition not a tackler but fleet DPS support.


I do get that and I don't know what the answer is. Yes a tad more speed would be nice but the concept still is that assault ships were supposed to hunt cruisers and up.
A destroyer that is custom made for killing everything in it's class and below is not a good target for assault ships, unless you don't plan to live to tell a tale about it.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#242 - 2015-12-21 02:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: elitatwo
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
https://suitonia.wordpress.com/2015/12/17/why-are-the-svipul-and-confessor-so-much-more-overpowered-than-the-hecate-and-jackdaw/

Highly recommend CCP give this a good read.

I think the observations and suggestions made in that article, really hit the nail on the head.

Changing the confessors speed mode bonuses to match the hecate, combined with a little base speed nerf and perhaps a small sig increase, would I think perfectly balance that ship, without ruining the fits of those who already use it in other already balanced ways.

Same again for the svipul, speed mode changed to match the hecate, base speed nerf, signature increase. A little something more might be required afterwards for that ship, but i think you get it 99% of the way there by simply making those changes.

What I think should be avoided is any further changes to their fitting, doing so is not truely addressing the issue, certainly not for the confessor atleast. By doing so you restrict the creativity and flexibility of all fits just to try and bandaid one particular issue.

Also would cut out the unintended mode switch trick, instead by giving them 2 sec alligns only in speed mode.


While I do like Suitonia and respect him a lot, I disagree somewhat.

Maybe the base speed on the Confessor is higher than the other ones but with that mass addition that makes the Confessor have more mass than a titan make is move really bulky.
You can try an experiment on SiSi and fit a few 1600mm plates on a Maller and put a 100mn afterburner on and tell me how "agile" that is.
There is not doubt that that minmatar thing is overpowered and needs to go down in flames.

Someone put a bath-tub with lead and bathe someone we all know in it and ask him, how he moves in his fancy new lead-coat.
The rest of the blog says, destroyer kills frigate - destroyer op.

Here is a hint, Ibis kills Jackdaw because Jackdaw underpowered. Haven't flown the Hecate much, only once, but I feel that the Caldari and Gallente got a very short stick there and the sudden minmatar f(l)avoritism is making me sick.

Thy shalt not have a better ship than those of the Caldari - masters of technology.

That minmatar yolo-i-win-boat should explode when you hit approach, not the other way around. And for the rest of the lowsec is zee onla plece in EVE population, for the last time destroyer kills frigate - zee END.

And please make sure you apply to join EVE-UNI today, so they can explain to you what damage per hit and damage per second means - oh zee horror, two different things.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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Bobman Smith
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#243 - 2015-12-21 22:37:11 UTC
Fixing T3 Dessies is quite simple.

Remove insurance: You lose it, you lose it all! (unless you come back to salvage your own corps)
Increase Dessy Hull cost to about 160M: They should simply cost more then a T2!
Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Doing good damage should be an asset to the class, but it should be its utility that gives it its advantage over T2. T2 DPS should always out DPS T3.

T3 immune to remote reps. They should be the most powerful solo/small gang ships but not useful for large fleets as T2 ships should be used. Remove Insurance from game. Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Buy me Ice cream please!

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#244 - 2015-12-22 01:19:20 UTC
Bobman Smith wrote:
Fixing T3 Dessies is quite simple.

Remove insurance: You lose it, you lose it all! (unless you come back to salvage your own corps)
Increase Dessy Hull cost to about 160M: They should simply cost more then a T2!
Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Doing good damage should be an asset to the class, but it should be its utility that gives it its advantage over T2. T2 DPS should always out DPS T3.


Sorry for my ignorance but what is a "dessay" and why should it cost more than a pirate cruiser? And while we are at it, can we reduce the amount of turrets a destroyer has?

An eight turret Catalyst is too stronk, should be 0.1 or 0.009 turrets, so they can't hurt the poor newbies in the lows and stuff. Better have all destroyers have a weapon damage penalty of 99.991% and rename them to pokemons instead - I poketh thee.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Bobman Smith
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2015-12-22 03:41:11 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Bobman Smith wrote:
Fixing T3 Dessies is quite simple.

Remove insurance: You lose it, you lose it all! (unless you come back to salvage your own corps)
Increase Dessy Hull cost to about 160M: They should simply cost more then a T2!
Change 50% to 25% weapons damage bonus. Doing good damage should be an asset to the class, but it should be its utility that gives it its advantage over T2. T2 DPS should always out DPS T3.


Sorry for my ignorance but what is a "dessay" and why should it cost more than a pirate cruiser? And while we are at it, can we reduce the amount of turrets a destroyer has?

An eight turret Catalyst is too stronk, should be 0.1 or 0.009 turrets, so they can't hurt the poor newbies in the lows and stuff. Better have all destroyers have a weapon damage penalty of 99.991% and rename them to pokemons instead - I poketh thee.


Your logic is?
Maybe its Dessie? You speak slang? Destroyers are commonly called Dessies, or Dessys, or however its spelt as its not really a proper word but an acronym.

Why should a T3 cost more then Pirate? Um, here's one: Its state of the art! Pirate ships are essentially glorified T1's still and they're costs reflect there rarity. There rarity balances there strengths over T1.

And its, "puff puff pass" fyi P

T3 immune to remote reps. They should be the most powerful solo/small gang ships but not useful for large fleets as T2 ships should be used. Remove Insurance from game. Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Buy me Ice cream please!

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#246 - 2015-12-22 17:44:45 UTC
Bobman Smith wrote:
...
Maybe its Dessie? You speak slang? Destroyers are commonly called Dessies, or Dessys, or however its spelt as its not really a proper word but an acronym.


Sorry, I don't speak colloquial. I hear it alot but this is not what they tought us in school. Haven't you ever noticed that I very rarely use acronyms at all?
Since this forum is open to read for all mankind to see I abstain from using acronyms which people from other backgrouds maybe not be familiar with as we are.

I still disagree that a large frigate should cost more than a pirate faction ship. State of the art maybe but they really shine in unknown space where you have to make more tactical decisions and don't have a market hub to dock and buy stuff that isn't there.
Maybe it is difficult to comprehend for people with a narrow viewfield but outside of lowsec there are areas of New Eden that are just out of reach of anything and all you have there is what you bring.

Unless you live in Syndicate where you can dock in most systems, everyone elses station doesn't allow for "outsiders" to dock and trade.
I said many, many times in the last decade that they digging their own grave but they wouldn't listen. Now they are begging CCP to clean up the mess they created.

There needs to be a general shift in a lot of places but when I call for nerfs, people start to look funny. Maybe someday, someone finds a ways to nerf people.
Until then we need to put a secret service detail on the middle school's playground.

So pokemons and frigate online it is.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Bobman Smith
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2015-12-22 21:16:22 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Bobman Smith wrote:
...
Maybe its Dessie? You speak slang? Destroyers are commonly called Dessies, or Dessys, or however its spelt as its not really a proper word but an acronym.


Sorry, I don't speak colloquial. I hear it alot but this is not what they tought us in school. Haven't you ever noticed that I very rarely use acronyms at all?
Since this forum is open to read for all mankind to see I abstain from using acronyms which people from other backgrouds maybe not be familiar with as we are.

I still disagree that a large frigate should cost more than a pirate faction ship. State of the art maybe but they really shine in unknown space where you have to make more tactical decisions and don't have a market hub to dock and buy stuff that isn't there.
Maybe it is difficult to comprehend for people with a narrow viewfield but outside of lowsec there are areas of New Eden that are just out of reach of anything and all you have there is what you bring.

Unless you live in Syndicate where you can dock in most systems, everyone elses station doesn't allow for "outsiders" to dock and trade.
I said many, many times in the last decade that they digging their own grave but they wouldn't listen. Now they are begging CCP to clean up the mess they created.

There needs to be a general shift in a lot of places but when I call for nerfs, people start to look funny. Maybe someday, someone finds a ways to nerf people.
Until then we need to put a secret service detail on the middle school's playground.

So pokemons and frigate online it is.


You make a good point about using acronyms on public fourms and I'll make the effort to reduce them going forwards.

But the rest of what you said does not make any sense... I'm trying to reverse engineer the logic but get stumped with trying to enter the value "pokemon" as its been referenced twice. Is there a guide I missed? Some activity in Eve I have not heard about? Please enlighten me your grace, as I'm having difficulties decoding your point...

T3 immune to remote reps. They should be the most powerful solo/small gang ships but not useful for large fleets as T2 ships should be used. Remove Insurance from game. Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Buy me Ice cream please!

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#248 - 2015-12-23 00:51:47 UTC
Bobman Smith wrote:
...You make a good point about using acronyms on public fourms and I'll make the effort to reduce them going forwards.

But the rest of what you said does not make any sense... I'm trying to reverse engineer the logic but get stumped with trying to enter the value "pokemon" as its been referenced twice. Is there a guide I missed? Some activity in Eve I have not heard about? Please enlighten me your grace, as I'm having difficulties decoding your point...


I was trying to make a word-play. Since everyone here is so hellbend on nerfing my laserboat I was proposing a 99.991% weapon damage penalty at which time the only thing they would be doing is poking someone but not doing what they should be doing.
Is poking an Ibis with one hp damage enough, so that they are not considered "overpowered"?

Hence the pokemons, the new name for destroyers.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2015-12-28 04:41:26 UTC
I don't think they seem that OP. It seems more that they suit the current meta. Mobile ships that can deal damage from distance while kiting are the flavour of the month. I find a garmur far more oppressive in small gang. Perhaps the svipul needs a slight tweaking, but the other ships seem ok.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.

Atomeon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2015-12-28 09:59:37 UTC
How about make them really T3, when you die in it you lose skill points?
Thats the penalty for T3s so far.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#251 - 2016-01-02 07:48:28 UTC
It's 2016. Can we nerf the Svipul yet?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#252 - 2016-01-02 14:03:59 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
It's 2016. Can we nerf the Svipul yet?


They are still at holidays - so are you. Give it a few weeks, they will do it.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#253 - 2016-01-03 04:45:01 UTC
Restricting ships to fitting size-specific prop mods is a terrible idea because it homogenizes fitting choices while accomplishing nothing in terms of balance. None of the T3Ds are OP because of oversized prop mods, and oversized prop mods are an interesting and unique aspect of ship fitting that deserves to be left in the game. Oversized prop fits in general are not OP and are not necessarily a bad thing, it's just that some ships that happen to be OP also happen to be good with oversized props. Taking oversized props away is just unnecessary restriction on player creativity.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#254 - 2016-01-04 15:21:34 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Restricting ships to fitting size-specific prop mods is a terrible idea because it homogenizes fitting choices while accomplishing nothing in terms of balance. None of the T3Ds are OP because of oversized prop mods, and oversized prop mods are an interesting and unique aspect of ship fitting that deserves to be left in the game. Oversized prop fits in general are not OP and are not necessarily a bad thing, it's just that some ships that happen to be OP also happen to be good with oversized props. Taking oversized props away is just unnecessary restriction on player creativity.


I agree. As a disclaimer, i do not use oversized AB t3ds. That being said, i do use oversized AB BCs as it actually allows BCs to have some form of range control to smaller ships. A 10mn AB BC is laughable (maybe 500m/s if you are lucky), where as a 100mn AB is around 800-1k m/s. Sacrifices are made and the ships still turn like a planet, but i have range control to dunk smaller ships like t3ds. 10mn t3ds on their own arent that hard to deal with either. Especially when you have neuts.

The issue specifically with t3ds is that their prop mode gives them a huge agility bonus and combined with links (which gives agility/speed bonuses) puts them over the top. Its not an oversized prop issue, its a prop mode bonus + links issue.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#255 - 2016-01-04 18:11:21 UTC
How about increasing their sig to really make larger vessels (all with medium weapon systems) more effective at dealing with them? They seem intended to be the bane of most frigate hulls anyway but an increased sig let bigger weapon actually hit them or at least make it easyer.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#256 - 2016-01-04 19:04:38 UTC
I think their size is ok -- 220 vulcans, dual 150 rails, light missiles can hit them just fine (and this is the armament you'd use to take on smaller targets anyway)

In fact, having excellent ships in game is not a dealbreaker, as long as it hurts when you lose them, and as long as all 4 tactical destroyers are balanced compared to their own class. That's why the Svipul, superior in both speed and scanres, could perhaps use a little toning down.

Signature size would make little difference. The reason you can't easily get rid of them, imo, is you can fit 24k EHP tanks on them -- and that's considerably more than an interdictor with the same pricetag and sigsize can mount.

Which, again, would be fine if they'd up the price x1.5 (around 90 mil).
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#257 - 2016-01-04 23:36:57 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


I agree. As a disclaimer, i do not use oversized AB t3ds. That being said, i do use oversized AB BCs as it actually allows BCs to have some form of range control to smaller ships. A 10mn AB BC is laughable (maybe 500m/s if you are lucky), where as a 100mn AB is around 800-1k m/s. Sacrifices are made and the ships still turn like a planet, but i have range control to dunk smaller ships like t3ds. 10mn t3ds on their own arent that hard to deal with either. Especially when you have neuts.

The issue specifically with t3ds is that their prop mode gives them a huge agility bonus and combined with links (which gives agility/speed bonuses) puts them over the top. Its not an oversized prop issue, its a prop mode bonus + links issue.

Yup. Oversized ABs are great on even T1 destroyers and battlecruisers. There are tradeoffs for fitting them, so it is OK. They are fun.

But T3Ds are a different ball game.

Compare the Confessor to the Succubus. Unlike the Confessor, the Succubus is actually bonused to ABs. Yet if they both fit 10mn ABs the Confessor is significantly more agile than the Succubus even if it is not in speed mode.

So, a Confessor, a destroyer hull, is more agile with an oversized AB than a pirate frigate that is specifically designed to work with ABs.

Succubus align time with 10mn = 19.5 seconds. Confessor align time with 10mn = 17.7 seconds. Confessor align time in speed mode = 11.8 seconds

An 11.8 second align time with an oversized AB would be ridiculous for a frigate, nevermind a T3D with 450 DPS.

Succubus is my favourite ship and I love flying an oversized AB on it, but since the Confessor came out it is completely overshadowed by it.

I'm not entirely sure what will be done about these ships but those are some thoughts for food I guess.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#258 - 2016-01-06 20:48:20 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
[quote=Stitch Kaneland]

T3Ds are a different ball game.

Compare the Confessor to the Succubus. Unlike the Confessor, the Succubus is actually bonused to ABs. Yet if they both fit 10mn ABs the Confessor is significantly more agile than the Succubus even if it is not in speed mode.

So, a Confessor, a destroyer hull, is more agile with an oversized AB than a pirate frigate that is specifically designed to work with ABs.


T3Ds were a stupid idea for a ship class and are like this more or less across the board: they take a destroyer hull and pack HAC-like stats onto it. It's HACs all over again-- pay enough ISK and you can literally cheat the game's original set of power progression tradeoffs by gaining more stats without any commensurate decrease in agility, scan res, signature size, or damage application.

EVE was a much better game when increasing your on-paper stats (DPS, tank, etc) required actual sacrifices in other, non-wallet areas. Now it's just a game of, "how much money can I throw at these problems to make them go away?" While that approach may have been somewhat viable in the distant past, when only a small minority of players could afford to cheat the system (in terms of both ISK and skillpoints), the fact that these T2 and T3 platforms are now almost universally attainable has ruined the PvP meta completely. It's literally worse than the nano-HAC era. Sure, pre-nerf nano-HACs were a gigantic pain to deal with, but at least only the richest BoB elite PvPers actually flew them. Now you cruise through nullsec and 95% of the combat ships you see are Svipuls. They can run from anything they don't want to fight, they can fight almost anything in the game, and they're super oppressive to new players. It's absurd.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#259 - 2016-01-08 22:53:19 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
[quote=Stitch Kaneland]

T3Ds are a different ball game.

Compare the Confessor to the Succubus. Unlike the Confessor, the Succubus is actually bonused to ABs. Yet if they both fit 10mn ABs the Confessor is significantly more agile than the Succubus even if it is not in speed mode.

So, a Confessor, a destroyer hull, is more agile with an oversized AB than a pirate frigate that is specifically designed to work with ABs.


T3Ds were a stupid idea for a ship class and are like this more or less across the board: they take a destroyer hull and pack HAC-like stats onto it. It's HACs all over again-- pay enough ISK and you can literally cheat the game's original set of power progression tradeoffs by gaining more stats without any commensurate decrease in agility, scan res, signature size, or damage application.

EVE was a much better game when increasing your on-paper stats (DPS, tank, etc) required actual sacrifices in other, non-wallet areas. Now it's just a game of, "how much money can I throw at these problems to make them go away?" While that approach may have been somewhat viable in the distant past, when only a small minority of players could afford to cheat the system (in terms of both ISK and skillpoints), the fact that these T2 and T3 platforms are now almost universally attainable has ruined the PvP meta completely. It's literally worse than the nano-HAC era. Sure, pre-nerf nano-HACs were a gigantic pain to deal with, but at least only the richest BoB elite PvPers actually flew them. Now you cruise through nullsec and 95% of the combat ships you see are Svipuls. They can run from anything they don't want to fight, they can fight almost anything in the game, and they're super oppressive to new players. It's absurd.


At least T3Cs have some ISK barrier to prevent people from flying them all the time, along with skill point loss, which sucks donkey balls, but T3Ds have none of the above. Insurance replaces your loss, destroyer skills take no time at all, small guns same story, and T3Ds are universally and completely better than all ship classes underneath them. You miss a pirate ewar bonus here and there, no 30km points and 24km webs, boo hoo, you get everything else you could ever ask for out of a ship.
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#260 - 2016-01-22 10:18:12 UTC
So did the focus group happen? Did it die? Or what? Can one of the focus group members at least come give us a wave to indicate that this was/is progressing beyond "let's do this! +1"