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Rifter
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ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#1 - 2015-12-31 15:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ivona fly
give its tracking bonus back,

give it fourth turret

remove or tweak damage bonus maybe (to balance the 4 turrets)

Give it a bonus for the powergrid requirements of small artillery. like tier 3 BC for oversize guns, it now might be able to fit 280mm but not be brokenly strong on fittings for AC fits

this can then be like the matarian kestrel but a shorter range version, instant high volley to medium frigate range, or a 4 turret AC brawler.

*tin hat on*

Pirate
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
#2 - 2015-12-31 15:19:26 UTC
With autocannons being good at tracking from the box as well as having sexy faloff bonuses combined with double the bang from any tracking comp you may fit I see no reason why it should be that way.
You have to understand one simple thing — Minmatar ships magically look terrible on pure stats.
Yet they just work.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#3 - 2015-12-31 15:20:18 UTC
Aren't there enough Minmatar frigates with tracking bonuses already?

Oh god.
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
#4 - 2015-12-31 15:28:52 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Aren't there enough Minmatar frigates with tracking bonuses already?

Actually, I've got an idea.
Let's add "[Race] combat ships" skill, giving different bonuses to ships
Minmatars get tracking for projectile turrets and explosion velocity for missiles.
Amarrs get cap reduction for laser turrets and neut range/strength.
Gallente get tracking for hybrid turrets and defender missile velocity.
Caldari get optimal for hybrid turrets and explosion radius for missiles.
Then we'll tear these boring bonuses from the ship hulls.
ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#5 - 2015-12-31 15:42:07 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Aren't there enough Minmatar frigates with tracking bonuses already?


Maybe but i was just think to have an option for a 280 artillery t1 frigate, right now I only see viable fits on the Firetail.

Or does a decent arty fit already work on the slasher or rifter? seems like a whole weapon system is ignored on the t1 non faction frigate hulls
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
#6 - 2015-12-31 15:47:33 UTC
ivona fly wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Aren't there enough Minmatar frigates with tracking bonuses already?


Maybe but i was just think to have an option for a 280 artillery t1 frigate, right now I only see viable fits on the Firetail.

Or does a decent arty fit already work on the slasher or rifter? seems like a whole weapon system is ignored on the t1 non faction frigate hulls

The problem is not the ships (They work just fine) but the meta and breakpoints.
Arty thrasher may oneshot at the very least noob explorer.
Arty frigate isn't.
ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#7 - 2015-12-31 16:40:32 UTC
Leila Meurtrier wrote:
ivona fly wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Aren't there enough Minmatar frigates with tracking bonuses already?


Maybe but i was just think to have an option for a 280 artillery t1 frigate, right now I only see viable fits on the Firetail.

Or does a decent arty fit already work on the slasher or rifter? seems like a whole weapon system is ignored on the t1 non faction frigate hulls

The problem is not the ships (They work just fine) but the meta and breakpoints.
Arty thrasher may oneshot at the very least noob explorer.
Arty frigate isn't.


I agree it may not one shot, but it can punch through active tanks potentially in solo, same theory as arty firetail,also not just solo I'm thinking small gang and faction warfare, rather than a mini cockbag :)
Arla Sarain
#8 - 2016-01-01 04:51:36 UTC
Why do you insist to have to fit 280s perfectly?

With max skills you only need 1 fitting rig to fit 250s and a rocket launcher, plus passive and active tank, with the third slot being either DCU or a damage amp, whatever floats your boat.

280s fit with an active tank and you end up living of of whatever resists you can muster, with a damage amp still.
ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#9 - 2016-01-06 17:13:01 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Why do you insist to have to fit 280s perfectly?

With max skills you only need 1 fitting rig to fit 250s and a rocket launcher, plus passive and active tank, with the third slot being either DCU or a damage amp, whatever floats your boat.

280s fit with an active tank and you end up living of of whatever resists you can muster, with a damage amp still.


just to be able to punch through reps, 250mm seem okay on thrasher, but on frigates that have less guns the punch is pretty weak, and can be repped through, leaving with low DPS and mediocre volley, at that point i think a LML kestrel will out volley it, even if with a travel delay.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#10 - 2016-01-06 18:58:38 UTC
ivona fly wrote:


*tin hat on*

Pirate




I think you meant 'flame suit'

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#11 - 2016-01-08 07:32:39 UTC
I dunno about all that now, but taking off a missile launcher slot and adding a 4th projectile slot without changing the PG or CPU would at least make the Rifter viable versus other races in damage output, right now. Minmatar don't really have any ability to even field a glass cannon sort of t1 frigate with the slot layout, whereas all of the other races have t1 frigs (nonfaction) that can be fit to reach 200dps.

If you put a 4th turret on, and took off the missile slots, then you could get a very lightly tanked 200dps shield frigate. It would then be able to at least accomplish 1 role that every other race can, and that is field a DPS frigate with at least 200dps, it would also possibly be able to put the rifter on par with other scram kiters for damage output. Right now, there is little incentive to fly the rifter outside of engageability, in that I know people will usually fight me in one.
Leila Meurtrier
Why Am I Not Surprised
#12 - 2016-01-08 07:39:22 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Minmatar don't really have any ability to even field a glass cannon sort of t1 frigate with the slot layout, whereas all of the other races have t1 frigs (nonfaction) that can be fit to reach 200dps.

If you put a 4th turret on, and took off the missile slots, then you could get a very lightly tanked 200dps shield frigate. It would then be able to at least accomplish 1 role that every other race can, and that is field a DPS frigate with at least 200dps, it would also possibly be able to put the rifter on par with other scram kiters for damage output. Right now, there is little incentive to fly the rifter outside of engageability, in that I know people will usually fight me in one.

As far as I know, the only way to fit amarr frigate to 200 dps is punisher (And it works only after much needed extra turret). But this frigate is unique in a way that it doesn't have enough slots for tackle.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#13 - 2016-01-08 08:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: ValentinaDLM
Leila Meurtrier wrote:
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Minmatar don't really have any ability to even field a glass cannon sort of t1 frigate with the slot layout, whereas all of the other races have t1 frigs (nonfaction) that can be fit to reach 200dps.

If you put a 4th turret on, and took off the missile slots, then you could get a very lightly tanked 200dps shield frigate. It would then be able to at least accomplish 1 role that every other race can, and that is field a DPS frigate with at least 200dps, it would also possibly be able to put the rifter on par with other scram kiters for damage output. Right now, there is little incentive to fly the rifter outside of engageability, in that I know people will usually fight me in one.

As far as I know, the only way to fit amarr frigate to 200 dps is punisher (And it works only after much needed extra turret). But this frigate is unique in a way that it doesn't have enough slots for tackle.


All amarr combat frigates can get 200dps cold, FWIW so can the slicer.
http://i.imgur.com/Ro4HbMJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/2UIh1DU.png
http://i.imgur.com/jbH3CTb.png

Mind you, I wouldn't use a fit like any of these, barring some special circumstance I did just make them to illustrate that Amarr have lots of gank frig potential, but I don't see why the Minmatar should be the only race without this capability largely due to split weapons with no bonus to those split weapons (because what I would really like to see is a rifter with a 5% damage bonus to turrets and a 5% damage bonus to missiles with 3missile/3 turrets with 4 highs making it a mini scythe fleet issue or mini typhoon fleet issue rather than a mini stabber as it is envisioned now, but that might be OP).

DPS frigates are a thing especially in fleets that already have tackle, there is no need to put 30 points on a comet when only one would suffice, as someone who regularly FCs frigate fleets with no tackle on them (that is for the ceptors/garmurs/etc to do, not my Kestrels) this is something that interests me greatly.
ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#14 - 2016-01-08 12:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ivona fly
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Leila Meurtrier wrote:
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Minmatar don't really have any ability to even field a glass cannon sort of t1 frigate with the slot layout, whereas all of the other races have t1 frigs (nonfaction) that can be fit to reach 200dps.

If you put a 4th turret on, and took off the missile slots, then you could get a very lightly tanked 200dps shield frigate. It would then be able to at least accomplish 1 role that every other race can, and that is field a DPS frigate with at least 200dps, it would also possibly be able to put the rifter on par with other scram kiters for damage output. Right now, there is little incentive to fly the rifter outside of engageability, in that I know people will usually fight me in one.

As far as I know, the only way to fit amarr frigate to 200 dps is punisher (And it works only after much needed extra turret). But this frigate is unique in a way that it doesn't have enough slots for tackle.


All amarr combat frigates can get 200dps cold, FWIW so can the slicer.
http://i.imgur.com/Ro4HbMJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/2UIh1DU.png
http://i.imgur.com/jbH3CTb.png

Mind you, I wouldn't use a fit like any of these, barring some special circumstance I did just make them to illustrate that Amarr have lots of gank frig potential, but I don't see why the Minmatar should be the only race without this capability largely due to split weapons with no bonus to those split weapons (because what I would really like to see is a rifter with a 5% damage bonus to turrets and a 5% damage bonus to missiles with 3missile/3 turrets with 4 highs making it a mini scythe fleet issue or mini typhoon fleet issue rather than a mini stabber as it is envisioned now, but that might be OP).

DPS frigates are a thing especially in fleets that already have tackle, there is no need to put 30 points on a comet when only one would suffice, as someone who regularly FCs frigate fleets with no tackle on them (that is for the ceptors/garmurs/etc to do, not my Kestrels) this is something that interests me greatly.


True imo, i never really thought about it but the DPS output off all t1 minmatar frigates is pretty low, at least on paper anyway.

EDIT:

233 dps overheated, 4k ehp not sure how practical it is though, and uses HAIL so probably can't track **** Shocked probably dies to anything with a web.

https://o.smium.org/new/78465002343759872#modules,search
or
[Rifter, HAIL]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Medium Azeotropic Restrained Shield Extender
5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

200mm AutoCannon II, Hail S
200mm AutoCannon II, Hail S
200mm AutoCannon II, Hail S
[empty high slot]

Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#15 - 2016-01-08 18:53:04 UTC
ivona fly wrote:
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Leila Meurtrier wrote:
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Minmatar don't really have any ability to even field a glass cannon sort of t1 frigate with the slot layout, whereas all of the other races have t1 frigs (nonfaction) that can be fit to reach 200dps.

If you put a 4th turret on, and took off the missile slots, then you could get a very lightly tanked 200dps shield frigate. It would then be able to at least accomplish 1 role that every other race can, and that is field a DPS frigate with at least 200dps, it would also possibly be able to put the rifter on par with other scram kiters for damage output. Right now, there is little incentive to fly the rifter outside of engageability, in that I know people will usually fight me in one.

As far as I know, the only way to fit amarr frigate to 200 dps is punisher (And it works only after much needed extra turret). But this frigate is unique in a way that it doesn't have enough slots for tackle.


All amarr combat frigates can get 200dps cold, FWIW so can the slicer.
http://i.imgur.com/Ro4HbMJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/2UIh1DU.png
http://i.imgur.com/jbH3CTb.png

Mind you, I wouldn't use a fit like any of these, barring some special circumstance I did just make them to illustrate that Amarr have lots of gank frig potential, but I don't see why the Minmatar should be the only race without this capability largely due to split weapons with no bonus to those split weapons (because what I would really like to see is a rifter with a 5% damage bonus to turrets and a 5% damage bonus to missiles with 3missile/3 turrets with 4 highs making it a mini scythe fleet issue or mini typhoon fleet issue rather than a mini stabber as it is envisioned now, but that might be OP).

DPS frigates are a thing especially in fleets that already have tackle, there is no need to put 30 points on a comet when only one would suffice, as someone who regularly FCs frigate fleets with no tackle on them (that is for the ceptors/garmurs/etc to do, not my Kestrels) this is something that interests me greatly.


True imo, i never really thought about it but the DPS output off all t1 minmatar frigates is pretty low, at least on paper anyway.

EDIT:

233 dps overheated, 4k ehp not sure how practical it is though, and uses HAIL so probably can't track **** Shocked probably dies to anything with a web.

https://o.smium.org/new/78465002343759872#modules,search
or
[Rifter, HAIL]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Medium Azeotropic Restrained Shield Extender
5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

200mm AutoCannon II, Hail S
200mm AutoCannon II, Hail S
200mm AutoCannon II, Hail S
[empty high slot]

Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I


Still it isn't doing over 200 cold, and well, t2 close range ammo isn't usually very good for short range weapons systems, there was a reason I didn't for example pick void for that punisher, which BTW gets 324 dps overheated with void. Gleam/quake etc are fine due to their tracking bonus.
ivona fly
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#16 - 2016-01-08 19:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ivona fly
not disagree, needs a buff only way to get 200dps cold on rifter with t1 ammo is with blasters. I don't really fly the rifter much to be honest so have no real vested interest in that ship, other than I would like to see it used more / have a reason to fly it.

also that punisher probably do more dps with navy ammo