Player Features and Ideas Discussion

You can repeat that lie as often as you want, but cloaks are still working as intended.

Mike
I don't think anyone minds the ability to actively disrupt isk earning. Its the passive afk bit that is the problem. And I am pretty sure that afk cloaky camping is an unintended player adaptation (afk cloaky camping assumes multiple accounts, unlimited broadband, and additional hardware that would have marginalized to likelihood back in the day).

Karous
Skilled pvp players do not rely on afk cloaky camping. Its a crutch for the more impaired of campbears.

Karous
Its broken for reasons given many, many times.

A game mechanic that allows an afk alt in a secondary account dictate the behaviour environment for many, many active players is broken.

A game philosophy that allows a pilot to be undocked, in hostile space, afk, and safe (the 4/4) is broken.

Afk cloaky camping was never an intended design feature, but became a multiple account player adaptation as hardware availability and internet connection quality matured.

Now any idiot and their dog can afk cloaky camp. So its time to fix it.

You do know that is an incredibly inane canned argument that seeks to conflate local and Intel with a broken mechanic.

Other than its utility in giving gankbears giggles at the expense of people flying ships that by game design rely on evasion for survival, afk camping is a symptom of a problem that if held to the same standard any other mechanic in EvE adheres to would be hotfixed out of the game within hours.

Wander
4/4 is a broken feature that will be removed. And it will be removed directly.

Afk cloaky campers are ultimately taking advantage of people paying for subscriptions and using that against them.

Wander
I did 5 frostline sites in a wormhole today. Damn you have it easy. Keep dscan up and start worrying about combat probes only when they start getting within a couple au (a bit lack of talent incidentally to scan down instead of just checking out the sites. Not good adaptation to a change in circumstance that).

Afk cloaky camping is an issue because of the implicit threat (or "pretty big psychological effect" as it translates to stupid). You do not fix the issue by making a much bigger implicit threat.

Then we would need all kinds of compensations - for example that all sites in null sec have to be scanned down (we know ships are not afk when they flag their presence with combat probes).

Otherwise the only viable off-peak PvE in null sec will be PI, Moon-goo, and Wormholes giving access to safe PvE areas (or areas where sites need to be scanned down so ample warning is given that you are being hunted).

Ratting and mining in null sec would effectively no longer exist.

I can live with that of course, because I am adaptable. I quite like the idea of farming wormholes from a null-sec base. Seems the best of both worlds really.

Oh shush, don't confuse people with facts and logic.

Really, point to a post where I have expressly argued this?

All well and good; except that Teckos does have a valid point: you're not supposed to know a cloaker is there. I have been thinking along the lines of "if it has a cloak fitted, it doesn't show up in local until it's been decloaked for 20 sec", along with "still lingers in local for 180 sec after cloaking again". When docked, obviously, the character should show up in local as well.

If this were to be the case, stealth is retained and therefore I could live with making cloaks probe-able. Because people won't scan unless they know they should.

20 sec, because you need time to cloak after jumping a gate; and no more than 20 sec because after all, non-covops cloaks should be more vulnerable.

I haven't entirely thought it through yet, but figured I'd toss it in the group anyway. If cloaked ships don't appear in local they won't encourage people to dock up and therefore might actually catch something for a change instead op scaring the locals off. One might argue this too increases "implicit risk" but a 100% certain situation should not exist. I too would like to call that 4/4 :

1. Making ISK
2. undocked
3. in unprotected space (no gatecamps, no eyes up, no intel channels)
4. 100% safe escape hatch due to advanced warning system

Protection, in one form or another, should be the player's job - a team effort. I'm all in favour of making cloaks scannable PROVIDED we get true stealth in return. How to achieve this is open to debate, but as outlined my "fix" would also include local chat; however not quite in the same way Teckos' proposal works.

As far as I'm concerned these mechanics (delayed chat on both cloaking and decloaking) may even apply to non-cloaked ships (delayed chat on entering and leaving system); after all, roaming gangs have the exact same issue cloaked ships do: the local spike gives them away. 14.3 AU Dscan should provide sufficient safety. Targeting delay upon decloak should provide sufficient safety.

Either way, simply removing *all* forms of uncertainty cannot be the solution. I do believe EvE is too safe already. Bombing cloaks into oblivion allows free reign of the 4/4 ISK Printer, and this too should be addressed.

That's because I happen to like risk. Ships could or could not be cyno fitted. There may or may not be a fleet coming out of the woodwork. The ship I engage may be a high-DPS brawler, have some EWAR and neuts up his sleeve, or he may have a massive buffer or an active tank that doesn't quit ... If battles were resolved by pitting known factors against each other, then wherein lies the challenge? "pretty big psychological effects" perceived this way is the thrill of PvP, the jitters you get for ninja-ing through new eden.

No, I'm not actively trying to misunderstand you: you mean the fear that keeps people from undocking - not the "good fear" that keeps people interested in this game but "bad fear" that makes people bored and leave.

How this is perceived is frankly their problem. If I mine Veldspar in highsec, I may earn perhaps 20 mil/hour and be bored out of my skull. I may earn the same 20 mil/hour mining Arkonor in nullsec. Then why on earth would you mine in nullsec? Well ... because I happen to LIKE the jitters. I like to jump a wormhole, grab me some gas and moonwalk out. It's really not about the ship or the ISK at all -- it's about taking a risk and getting away with it.

If I knew for a fact there was NO danger at all because all variables are known up-front; no cynos (because a-symmetric and no counter and blah), no stealth (because must nerf that too), ... what's the point of going through the motions? We might as well skip the whole 'gameplay' part and award everybody a medal 'congrats, you all won EvE' and turn off the server.




No- I meant like "none but the most sophisticated of installations" would know I'm here.




1. I don't see what AFK has to do with anything. I can agree on undocked, hostile space and safe however; but as Mag's would say: two way street. Cloakers as well as PvEers are both too safe. Agreed no compensation is necessary for either of them - just put them both at risk and be done with it.

2. First off: if they actually were many active pilots, they wouldn't have an issue. But I do understand what you're trying to say. Not sure if this is an issue, or how one would resolve it... I see a payed account and people use it as they see fit. If that means hanging in a random system and providing intel, that's okay. One blackops bridge pilot can influence many players as well. One Scimitar or Kitsune could turn the tide of battle. One good diplomat or spy can affect many many active accounts even without logging in. You simply cannot nerf psychological warfare. Because it's psychological. CCP provides servers, clients, game mechanics and ship models. They cannot be held responsible for your psychological well being.

Ergo, mechanics is EXACTLY what we ought to discuss; for apparently, your psyche and mine work in completely different ways. The mechanics however, are the same for both of us.


I get that my proposition somehow came across as a plea for "compensation". It was not. It was merely an attempt to re-imagine covert ships as invisible rather than immune. Invisible allows counter-play (eg: Observatory Arrays perhaps dedicated anti-cloak equipment) whereas immune indeed feels like a "sucky feature". But I'm clearly not asking for something we don't already have; nor am I defending immunity or AFK gameplay. I do not consider it my business to condemn how people use their account -- they may AFK in Jita for weeks on end for all I care. They may farm FW plexes AFK. They may mine AFK. Or they may be the Mittani and not log on for months yet still impact the game -- none of my business. I am merely looking for another way to cloak, so that play and counter-play may exist without breaking game balance. This is what we're here for, no?