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EVE Online is in the Top-Ten Platinum list of WINE

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Author
Whitehound
#1 - 2015-12-24 18:00:57 UTC
See here.

(Here is a memorable picture of it in case it changes.)

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#2 - 2015-12-24 19:35:48 UTC
How do we fix these results so it is #1 forever? P

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Whitehound
#3 - 2015-12-24 20:18:41 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
How do we fix these results so it is #1 forever? P

This is a good question. I have added a vote to it and will have to wait and see now. Shocked

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2015-12-25 18:05:32 UTC
Eve being platinum I find rather odd, to be frank. Platinum means, that everything works flawlessly 'out of the box', which is simply not the case.
Whitehound
#5 - 2015-12-25 20:54:36 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Eve being platinum I find rather odd, to be frank. Platinum means, that everything works flawlessly 'out of the box', which is simply not the case.

This is just you. It works for several people including myself the way you said it yourself: out of the box. Maybe you want someone to help you, maybe you want a better Linux distribution, but complaining about it will not change a thing.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

MAnuOmNama
All-Out
#6 - 2015-12-26 09:25:37 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Eve being platinum I find rather odd, to be frank. Platinum means, that everything works flawlessly 'out of the box', which is simply not the case.

This is just you. It works for several people including myself the way you said it yourself: out of the box. Maybe you want someone to help you, maybe you want a better Linux distribution, but complaining about it will not change a thing.


You've got the CQ working and are seeing the new shield and armour hardener effects?
Whitehound
#7 - 2015-12-27 00:02:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
MAnuOmNama wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Eve being platinum I find rather odd, to be frank. Platinum means, that everything works flawlessly 'out of the box', which is simply not the case.

This is just you. It works for several people including myself the way you said it yourself: out of the box. Maybe you want someone to help you, maybe you want a better Linux distribution, but complaining about it will not change a thing.


You've got the CQ working and are seeing the new shield and armour hardener effects?

Both has got nothing to do with EVE's Platinum rating. The CQ never works under WINE, because the Python DLL that CCP ships with their game is buggy and CCP just does not support WINE to care about it. And that WINE does not yet support DX10/11/12 is well known. So when a game can be installed out of the box, runs and is very well playable then it gets rated Platinum, and this is the case.

That it may not meet all your expectations is a completely different story. I never cared for the CQ and many EVE players who play under Windows do not turn station environments on nor run it on high settings even when they can. During the last mass tests just before they introduced the new graphics effects, in which I participated under Windows, did my frame rate drop below 7-8 FPS! So I am asking you and because it is Christmas... how about we keep our expectations real and stop with the complaints? Instead, let us be happy for EVE getting the highest rating and see to it that it stays there.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2015-12-28 11:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Quote:
Platinum

An application can be rated as Platinum if it installs and runs flawlessly ‘out of the box’. No changes required in winecfg.

That's got nothing to do with my expectations, it's what it says here: https://appdb.winehq.org/help/?sTopic=maintainer_ratings

It works decently well out of the box, yes. But it does not work flawlessly, which is clearly a requirement for the "platinum" rating. Just why some things don't work does not matter - they don't. Full stop.

Even "gold" requires the application to run "flawlessly". Eve should at best be rated silver, because no matter what you do, overrides or no, some things just don't work:

Quote:
Silver

Application works excellently for ‘normal’ use;
Whitehound
#9 - 2015-12-29 16:54:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Neuntausend wrote:
It works decently well out of the box, yes. But it does not work flawlessly, which is clearly a requirement for the "platinum" rating. ...

Again, the fault is in your expectations. What you quote is an example for an application that was rated as Platinum. You now expect that this must be the rule by which it is decided, and again you are wrong and it was just another expectation of yours.

Now, the example they give on their website for a Platinum rating is a pretty obvious one. Of course, we all can have expectations and an application that works absolutely perfectly (which is again something that we would first need to define and agree upon...) is what we expect to see in getting such a rating, isn't it? It does however not mean that only the most perfect applications and only them should ever receive Platinum.

So how does one find out? You make a vote and state your findings. And as a matter of fact did my vote now got accepted as Platinum. So there you have it! The fact that the Captains Quarter does not work, because of a bug in the python.dll nor the fact that DX11 is not supported, because the WINE development in this area just is not ready yet, nor the fact that one gets a lot less frames per second when compared to Windows, has stopped EVE Online from getting another Platinum rating. End of story.

Now you can go ahead and have some new expectations and complain some more in hope that somebody out there will finally meet up with your expectations. There still is a small chance that you could get lucky ...

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2015-12-29 19:09:20 UTC
So if something doesn't work and I expect it to not work it should be platinum? Or is this just a fault in my expectation? Roll

By thew way.. EVE was platinum on 26.05.2010 for the first time.. Smile
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2015-12-29 20:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
No, what I linked is not an "example" - it's a definition. It says so in the page title: "Maintainer Rating Definitions", not "Maintainer Rating Examples". Please look up what "definition" means.

"Platinum" means (by definition, literally) "the application runs flawlessly out of the box". Eve does run out of the box, but it does not run flawlessly. Thereby it should not be rated platinum.

"Silver" is defined as "Application works excellently for ‘normal’ use" and it gives a few examples. Assuming Captains Quarters does not count as 'normal use' as most people don't use it and it's not required to play, one could say that Eve does indeed "work excellently for normal use" - Eve should be rated silver.

I also do not get why you would want Eve to be rated platinum. If Eve was indeed platinum quality on wine, it would mean that there's nothing left to improve. But there clearly is. Why would you want to fool yourself into believing everything is perfect, when it's clearly not?
Whitehound
#12 - 2015-12-29 20:35:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Just more expectations... Lol

You will be fighting the whole world before you realize it.

Make a vote or don't. You should know by now how the system works!

What is a shame though is that you actually believe Platinum would stand for something like that there's nothing left to improve, that now one could rest, when in fact you haven't even gotten your arse up to make a simple vote and that you are still only talking. That is some pretty bad sucking. Lol

It is just a rating and there will always be room for improvement. But if it was up to you then there should be a rating above Platinum, perhaps we could call it Diamond, which would be completely empty, because there is always room for improvement and where we could park all our dreams and hopes and expectations, too. That would be best, wouldn't it? The unreachable, untouchable Diamond rating, the one hovering above it all and one that meets every conceivable expectation. The mother of all ratings, the God rating ...

Are you smouldering over EVE getting a Platinum rating? Does it feel to you like it stained (your expectations of) the Platinum rating? Does it?? Twisted

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#13 - 2015-12-30 02:36:37 UTC
Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.


I have removed some post and those quoting them for the above reason. Please keep it civil.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.

Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2015-12-30 12:22:20 UTC
Ok, then once more with respect:

I am aware of how the ratings come to be. However, since anyone and their mother can submit test results, and pretty much anyone can be a maintainer as well, there's no real QA involved in the whole process. People who submit test results to the AppDB, especially for games, usually care strongly about the app they are submitting the test results for, and are inclined to rate the app higher than it should be. In the end, the rating is decided on more by how well people "feel" the application works for them, instead of how well it actually works, making the definitions declared by the AppDB itself completely worthless.

The Voting, btw, doesn't have anything to do with the ratings. The vote is what tells the Wine developers which applications and games people care about most. If an application has many votes, the developers know that's one they should concentrate their efforts on. I don't have anything against Eve being in a top ten list - it just shows that Linux people care about Eve, which is a good thing from the perspective of a Linux Eve Player.

However, the Ratings do not come together by means of vote, but by means of test results. It should not be democracy. If there's anything in the "What doesn't work" section of the test results, an application does not run flawlessly, and should therefore, by definition, not be rated platinum. I know it "can" be rated platinum, because there is no actual quality assessment involved, but that doesn't mean it should be. I can just say it again: It's not a race or competition of sorts. We don't gain anything by rating Eve higher than it should be. We would be much better off with Eve in the Top Ten Silver list, because that would send a signal to the developers, that even though many Linux people play Eve, it's not quite there yet. And in fact it isn't. Direct X 11 support is a thing the Wine developers will have to implement. And it doesn't really matter, whether the captains quaters is considered buggy or not - it works flawlessly on Windows, and as Wine is striving to emulate the Windows API, it should work on Wine as well, bugs or no.

That being said, I am very happy with how well Eve works these days, and has been for a long time now. It's very performant, by far most things work out of the box. Apart from the odd hiccup after major updates, Eve under wine is pretty hassle-free. But the fact still stands: It's not flawless, and therefore does not qualify for a "gold" or "platinum" rating.
Whitehound
#15 - 2015-12-30 16:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Neuntausend wrote:
But the fact still stands: It's not flawless, and therefore does not qualify for a "gold" or "platinum" rating.

No. It is not flawless, but it does qualify for Platinum. These are the facts. What you have is an opinion based on a false expectation of the rating system and a believe in absolutes such as the existence of flawless software or Santa Clause.

No software of a certain complexity will ever run flawless under WINE, because such software does not even run flawless under Windows. Therefore to expect the highest rating shall reflect flawlessness is unrealistic. The highest rating needs to reflect what is currently possible so that it meets with realistic expectations.

There is no use for a rating based on false expectations. The only use an imaginary rating of flawlessness would have is to meet with the expectations of a dreamer, when it is the dreamer who needs to wake up and face reality if he ever wants his opinion to be taken serious.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#16 - 2015-12-30 18:15:27 UTC
No, it really does not qualify as platinum. There where some moments in the history of EVE and wine where the platinum rating would have been ok. But currently there are some things that just don't work and therefor it should be rated silver.
Whitehound
#17 - 2015-12-30 18:58:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
No, it really does not qualify as platinum. There where some moments in the history of EVE and wine where the platinum rating would have been ok. But currently there are some things that just don't work and therefor it should be rated silver.

What do we have here? More expectations?! EVE is the second highest rated game. Yet, if it was up to you should the scale consist of at least two empty ratings above EVE. I say at least, because we have not yet discussed what other unrealistic expectations one can have once one admits to having abandoned the reality.

Not only could one imagine that at some day in the future WINE would copy Windows by a perfect 100%, but that further it also beats Windows by being better! Of course this would create a paradox, because it either copies it by 100% or it is different by being better, which means it cannot possibly be both at the same time. Still, one can imagine things and dream up fantasy ratings where it can have a paradox, too. It is the best part of a fantasy! So once you admit to the loss of reality does everything become a possibility. Still, only a small child would expect a fantasy to be real.

EVE got rated Platinum and your expectations got violated. You better get your EVE working under Linux now and start enjoying it, because your expectations have failed you. Lol

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#18 - 2015-12-30 19:55:52 UTC
There is a clear definition for the ratings and the eve rating does not match this definition. This has nothing to do with expectations or opinions, it's a simple fact.

I never played EVE on windows (windows 98 was my last windows installed on any of my machines), I always used linux with wine since I started in 2007. Did that just violate your expectation?
Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2015-12-30 21:22:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Ripley
Whitehound wrote:
The highest rating needs to reflect what is currently possible so that it meets with realistic expectations.
So if "currently possible" is: It sucks. Then it should be platinum? What are you talking, dude. Roll Maybe chill a little bit and let it go...

You also make me agree with CODE. members... Thanks Obama.
Whitehound
#20 - 2015-12-30 22:27:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
There is a clear definition for the ratings and the eve rating does not match this definition. This has nothing to do with expectations or opinions, it's a simple fact.

I never played EVE on windows (windows 98 was my last windows installed on any of my machines), I always used linux with wine since I started in 2007. Did that just violate your expectation?

Wrong again. There is no clear definition for the rating as it is a vote. When more people rate an application as platinum than not then it is also the current definition of it.
Mister Ripley wrote:
So if "currently possible" is: It sucks. Then it should be platinum? What are you talking, dude. Roll Maybe chill a little bit and let it go...

Theoretically, yes, what you fear is certainly within the range of possibilities. But many voters have come to understand the democratic principle behind the rating system, and because they will also share your fear with you, am I fairly certain that it will neither have unrealistic high or low ratings, but that the ratings will always reflect the opinions of the majority. You then do not need to agree with me, because we do have the voting system for this very reason. I hope you find relief in my words nevertheless and do not feel forced to agree with a CODE agent. Lol

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

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