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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3121 - 2015-12-28 19:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Cam Me'Leone wrote:
I think I have the answers I was looking for.

I'm a casual player.

Me to.

Anyway: discussions with that remiel guy are pointless, since he is incapable of understanding other points than his own.
:P

Just look at his answers to Lucas Kell where he just gets ad hominem.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3122 - 2015-12-28 19:41:19 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Cam Me'Leone wrote:
I think I have the answers I was looking for.

The prevailing opinion seems to be "if you walk down the street in New Eden in broad daylight without a gun on your hip; you should expect to get mugged" PVP is a requirement; a fact of life.

You found the answer you were looking for as part of a mission to post badly on eveo forums.

+1 karma


+2 damn it

He did inadvertently describe what EVE is, what makes it great, what has drawn many of us to it (I'm from Texas, EVE feels like home Twisted), and what the (as Remy put it) the 'Casualificaiton" (anti-challenge) crowd wants to see destroyed. Hell, it's what CCP has been eroding for the last few years in the understandable but ultimately misguided attempt to broaden the appeal of this game.

By trying to contain/curtail the 'bad people' in the game , CCP has done nothing but nerf those of us who thrived on opposing and surviving against them without 'developer hand outs'.

You can't destroy the core appeal of a game and then be surprised when it declines...



All that true, but eve could still be more clear to the newcomers of what is awaiting them. It cannot avoid to imagine that a lot of loss subscriptiosn could have been avoided all those years if the new players were set in cristal clear ways that they should expect that to happen and they should NOT fly with all the eggs on the same basket.


You must have a very optimistic view of humanity.

The humanity I know consists of people who have access to Google, as well as the ability to use myriad other sources, including real life people TELLING THEM what to expect and they still walk blindly into a situation then experience surprise lol.

IRL I work in law enforcement, I can't begin to tell you how many times (especially with the recent bad weather my area has experienced) I've seen it in action. Hell, the last time I had to answer a call about someone trapped in their vehicle in high water, the car was literally right next to the "Subject to Flooding during periods of heavy rain" sign.

Many people live in their own little universes where no amount of outside reality means much. That goes for mmo gamers double.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3123 - 2015-12-28 20:38:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


You must have a very optimistic view of humanity.

The humanity I know consists of people who have access to Google, as well as the ability to use myriad other sources, including real life people TELLING THEM what to expect and they still walk blindly into a situation then experience surprise lol.

IRL I work in law enforcement, I can't begin to tell you how many times (especially with the recent bad weather my area has experienced) I've seen it in action. Hell, the last time I had to answer a call about someone trapped in their vehicle in high water, the car was literally right next to the "Subject to Flooding during periods of heavy rain" sign.

Many people live in their own little universes where no amount of outside reality means much. That goes for mmo gamers double.


Idiots will be idiots of course but chance are some people gets caught with their pants down just because they were not told. Now the question is, are they stupid for not figuring it out themselves? Is it obvious like the fact that a chainsaw should not be stopped with your bare hands?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3124 - 2015-12-28 21:13:59 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

And yes, I would rather see the EVE servers close than see it become something it's not. I will be able to walk away from the servers closing with a smile on my face, like the end of a great adventure. As opposed to having to walk away in disgust and abhorrence at CCP selling out to the 'mass market' mindset. I don't mind change, I 100% support change, as long as it's change that adds to the experience and adheres to the nature of EVE online, and not just gimmicks for the sake of mass appeal.


CCP are a company, they exist to make a profit...


I see this excuse often. But it doesn't fly with me, because I've seen more than enough companies that exist to make the people they cater to happy first, which results in them making a profit.

You're talking about EA.

There is a difference between the games of a company that makes the games they want to make, understands its audience and caters to them, successfully profiting as a result, and a company that exists to make a profit. When you understand this, you'll understand why I cut you off at silly excuses that imply that if they don't implement what you're suggesting, they're going to go broke.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#3125 - 2015-12-28 21:28:38 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

And yes, I would rather see the EVE servers close than see it become something it's not. I will be able to walk away from the servers closing with a smile on my face, like the end of a great adventure. As opposed to having to walk away in disgust and abhorrence at CCP selling out to the 'mass market' mindset. I don't mind change, I 100% support change, as long as it's change that adds to the experience and adheres to the nature of EVE online, and not just gimmicks for the sake of mass appeal.


CCP are a company, they exist to make a profit...


I see this excuse often. But it doesn't fly with me, because I've seen more than enough companies that exist to make the people they cater to happy first, which results in them making a profit.

You're talking about EA.

There is a difference between the games of a company that makes the games they want to make, understands its audience and caters to them, successfully profiting as a result, and a company that exists to make a profit. When you understand this, you'll understand why I cut you off at silly excuses that imply that if they don't implement what you're suggesting, they're going to go broke.


What you would call CCP's "audience" are a minority of players. The other paying customers just are quitting the game faster than they can be replaced. vºv
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3126 - 2015-12-28 21:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

And yes, I would rather see the EVE servers close than see it become something it's not. I will be able to walk away from the servers closing with a smile on my face, like the end of a great adventure. As opposed to having to walk away in disgust and abhorrence at CCP selling out to the 'mass market' mindset. I don't mind change, I 100% support change, as long as it's change that adds to the experience and adheres to the nature of EVE online, and not just gimmicks for the sake of mass appeal.


CCP are a company, they exist to make a profit...


I see this excuse often. But it doesn't fly with me, because I've seen more than enough companies that exist to make the people they cater to happy first, which results in them making a profit.

You're talking about EA.

There is a difference between the games of a company that makes the games they want to make, understands its audience and caters to them, successfully profiting as a result, and a company that exists to make a profit. When you understand this, you'll understand why I cut you off at silly excuses that imply that if they don't implement what you're suggesting, they're going to go broke.


What you would call CCP's "audience" are a minority of players. The other paying customers just are quitting the game faster than they can be replaced. vºv


Good. I'd rather have a minority of people this game is intended for than a mass of casuals demanding more free stuff, and then actually getting it because they stomp their feet and threaten to leave. You haven't argued against my point, only confirmed it.

Ferrari also caters to a minority. They do pretty damn well.

I actually wouldn't even be here at all if it wasn't for the low server populations relative to other games.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3127 - 2015-12-28 22:02:03 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Ferrari also caters to a minority. They do pretty damn well.
They do that by finding dumb asses that will pay ten to fifty times the price of a sensible car.

Are you suggesting that CCP should do the same? Charge a couple of hundred bucks a month for you special snowflakes? I'm sure the hundred players left will have a great ol' time chasing each other around in noob ships since no miners or builders will be around to make stuff for the 'elites'.

Mr Epeen Cool
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3128 - 2015-12-28 22:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Mr Epeen wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Ferrari also caters to a minority. They do pretty damn well.
They do that by finding dumb asses that will pay ten to fifty times the price of a sensible car.


They also make cars that are worth that much, with very high-tech engineering. Your point? Oh thats right, more empty posturing. GG.

And oh the irony of Mr Epeen complaining about 'special snowflakes' and 'elites'. Pretty sure you've got the narcissism covered there mate.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3129 - 2015-12-28 22:24:02 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

And yes, I would rather see the EVE servers close than see it become something it's not. I will be able to walk away from the servers closing with a smile on my face, like the end of a great adventure. As opposed to having to walk away in disgust and abhorrence at CCP selling out to the 'mass market' mindset. I don't mind change, I 100% support change, as long as it's change that adds to the experience and adheres to the nature of EVE online, and not just gimmicks for the sake of mass appeal.


CCP are a company, they exist to make a profit...


I see this excuse often. But it doesn't fly with me, because I've seen more than enough companies that exist to make the people they cater to happy first, which results in them making a profit.

You're talking about EA.

There is a difference between the games of a company that makes the games they want to make, understands its audience and caters to them, successfully profiting as a result, and a company that exists to make a profit. When you understand this, you'll understand why I cut you off at silly excuses that imply that if they don't implement what you're suggesting, they're going to go broke.



The only difference between EA and CCP is the size of the company and the popularity of their respective products.

EA is extremely popular, profitable and contrary to your elitist views makes very good products or else people wouldn't keep buying them.

CCP is an extremely unknown company that has been losing money for a while and makes a very niche game and several failed projects. Obviously they are not making as good of a product as their customers would want because they are losing customers faster than gaining them.

Now, EA has nothing to do with this discussion. Ferrari has nothing to do with this discussion. But the desperation I see in your posting about anything and everything to come up with excuses and argument to support the continued self-immolation of the product you claim to love is amusing.

What direction you want Eve to go in has no weight on this subject. The fact remains that something needs to change if we are ever going to see those numbers go up. CCP has been on a mission for years now and it isn't working.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3130 - 2015-12-28 22:25:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
King Aires wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

And yes, I would rather see the EVE servers close than see it become something it's not. I will be able to walk away from the servers closing with a smile on my face, like the end of a great adventure. As opposed to having to walk away in disgust and abhorrence at CCP selling out to the 'mass market' mindset. I don't mind change, I 100% support change, as long as it's change that adds to the experience and adheres to the nature of EVE online, and not just gimmicks for the sake of mass appeal.


CCP are a company, they exist to make a profit...


I see this excuse often. But it doesn't fly with me, because I've seen more than enough companies that exist to make the people they cater to happy first, which results in them making a profit.

You're talking about EA.

There is a difference between the games of a company that makes the games they want to make, understands its audience and caters to them, successfully profiting as a result, and a company that exists to make a profit. When you understand this, you'll understand why I cut you off at silly excuses that imply that if they don't implement what you're suggesting, they're going to go broke.



The only difference between EA and CCP is the size of the company and the popularity of their respective products.


Citation needed.

Pics or it didn't happen.

EVIDENCE PLEASE.

Because the existing evidence disagrees with you. I'm not seeing the community interaction from EA on the same level as CCP. I see EA deploying crappy servers for their online games with a multibillion dollar budget, while CCP forks out on military grade hardware to give gamers the best experience possible with much less revenue than EA. I haven't seen a Battlefield Fanfest, not one. I see CCP catering to its audience, and I see EA focusing on profits, and I can demonstrate all of that. I see CCP treating its audience like people, and EA treating them like nothing more than sources of revenue.

What can you demonstrate?

Because the real desperation here is in the assertions made without evidence, especially where the assertions run contrary to the actual evidence.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#3131 - 2015-12-28 23:19:06 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
What you would call CCP's "audience" are a minority of players. The other paying customers just are quitting the game faster than they can be replaced. vºv


Good. I'd rather have a minority of people this game is intended for than a mass of casuals demanding more free stuff, and then actually getting it because they stomp their feet and threaten to leave. You haven't argued against my point, only confirmed it.

Ferrari also caters to a minority. They do pretty damn well.

I actually wouldn't even be here at all if it wasn't for the low server populations relative to other games.


Ferrari only sells one product. It's not as if they were staying in business thanks to all the guys buying vans and trucks, which is much the case for CCP and EVE.
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3132 - 2015-12-28 23:27:59 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
King Aires wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

And yes, I would rather see the EVE servers close than see it become something it's not. I will be able to walk away from the servers closing with a smile on my face, like the end of a great adventure. As opposed to having to walk away in disgust and abhorrence at CCP selling out to the 'mass market' mindset. I don't mind change, I 100% support change, as long as it's change that adds to the experience and adheres to the nature of EVE online, and not just gimmicks for the sake of mass appeal.


CCP are a company, they exist to make a profit...


I see this excuse often. But it doesn't fly with me, because I've seen more than enough companies that exist to make the people they cater to happy first, which results in them making a profit.

You're talking about EA.

There is a difference between the games of a company that makes the games they want to make, understands its audience and caters to them, successfully profiting as a result, and a company that exists to make a profit. When you understand this, you'll understand why I cut you off at silly excuses that imply that if they don't implement what you're suggesting, they're going to go broke.



The only difference between EA and CCP is the size of the company and the popularity of their respective products.


Citation needed.

Pics or it didn't happen.

EVIDENCE PLEASE.

Because the existing evidence disagrees with you. I'm not seeing the community interaction from EA on the same level as CCP. I see EA deploying crappy servers for their online games with a multibillion dollar budget, while CCP forks out on military grade hardware to give gamers the best experience possible with much less revenue than EA. I haven't seen a Battlefield Fanfest, not one. I see CCP catering to its audience, and I see EA focusing on profits, and I can demonstrate all of that. I see CCP treating its audience like people, and EA treating them like nothing more than sources of revenue.

What can you demonstrate?

Because the real desperation here is in the assertions made without evidence, especially where the assertions run contrary to the actual evidence.



You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about so you are resorting to meme's.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#3133 - 2015-12-28 23:31:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
King Aires wrote:
CCP is an extremely unknown company that has been losing money for a while ...

Do you have a source for this?

I'd be interested in reading it.
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3134 - 2015-12-29 00:08:50 UTC  |  Edited by: King Aires
Scipio Artelius wrote:
King Aires wrote:
CCP is an extremely unknown company that has been losing money for a while ...

Do you have a source for this?

I'd be interested in reading it.


CCP Financials thru 2014

Even in a good year like 2014 they were operating at a -49% net profit margin.

They had negative cash flow most years, and started floating bonds for cash.

The two seats sold for the VR partnership with Valkyrie and the loans to take the company private again makes me a bit worried they are in deeper trouble than the Eve-Offline numbers would suggest.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3135 - 2015-12-29 00:13:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
King Aires wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Because the existing evidence disagrees with you. I'm not seeing the community interaction from EA on the same level as CCP. I see EA deploying crappy servers for their online games with a multibillion dollar budget, while CCP forks out on military grade hardware to give gamers the best experience possible with much less revenue than EA. I haven't seen a Battlefield Fanfest, not one. I see CCP catering to its audience, and I see EA focusing on profits, and I can demonstrate all of that. I see CCP treating its audience like people, and EA treating them like nothing more than sources of revenue.

What can you demonstrate?

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about so you are resorting to meme's.

That's some excellent memes there.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3136 - 2015-12-29 00:20:02 UTC
King Aires wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
King Aires wrote:
CCP is an extremely unknown company that has been losing money for a while ...

Do you have a source for this?

I'd be interested in reading it.


CCP Financials thru 2014

Even in a good year like 2014 they were operating at a -49% net profit margin.

They had negative cash flow most years, and started floating bonds for cash.

The two seats sold for the VR partnership with Valkyrie and the loans to take the company private again makes me a bit worried they are in deeper trouble than the Eve-Offline numbers would suggest.


I suggest you learn how to read financial reports. A reduction in net profit margin does not mean they are not making a profit.

Anyway, I just remembered this existed. Enjoy the read.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3137 - 2015-12-29 00:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: King Aires
Remiel Pollard wrote:
King Aires wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
King Aires wrote:
CCP is an extremely unknown company that has been losing money for a while ...

Do you have a source for this?

I'd be interested in reading it.


CCP Financials thru 2014

Even in a good year like 2014 they were operating at a -49% net profit margin.

They had negative cash flow most years, and started floating bonds for cash.

The two seats sold for the VR partnership with Valkyrie and the loans to take the company private again makes me a bit worried they are in deeper trouble than the Eve-Offline numbers would suggest.


I suggest you learn how to read financial reports. A reduction in net profit margin does not mean they are not making a profit.

Anyway, I just remembered this existed. Enjoy the read.



Their cash flow statement went from 22mil in 2012 to 10mil in 2014... and we know 2015 was a bad year up until they went dark.

If they liquidated their company at the end of 2014 they would have still been 16mil in the hole.

I am no accountant, but I will be damned if some punk is going to twist that report into a positive.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3138 - 2015-12-29 00:40:51 UTC
King Aires wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
King Aires wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
King Aires wrote:
CCP is an extremely unknown company that has been losing money for a while ...

Do you have a source for this?

I'd be interested in reading it.


CCP Financials thru 2014

Even in a good year like 2014 they were operating at a -49% net profit margin.

They had negative cash flow most years, and started floating bonds for cash.

The two seats sold for the VR partnership with Valkyrie and the loans to take the company private again makes me a bit worried they are in deeper trouble than the Eve-Offline numbers would suggest.


I suggest you learn how to read financial reports. A reduction in net profit margin does not mean they are not making a profit.

Anyway, I just remembered this existed. Enjoy the read.



Their cash flow statement went from 22mil in 2012 to 10mil in 2014... and we know 2015 was a bad year up until they went dark.

If they liquidated their company at the end of 2014 they would have still been 16mil in the hole.

I am no accountant, but I will be damned if some punk is going to twist that report into a positive.


You tried to claim they are losing money. Tell me, how much money have they lost? If the report shows a profit, regardless of any reduction in profit from previous years, then it only shows a net gain. Who's twisting?

And 'some punk'? Really? Grow up.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3139 - 2015-12-29 00:55:01 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
You tried to claim they are losing money. Tell me, how much money have they lost? If the report shows a profit, regardless of any reduction in profit from previous years, then it only shows a net gain. Who's twisting?

And 'some punk'? Really? Grow up.
As someone who doesn't understand the reports but can get a gist of the numbers and description meanings can I ask you to explain?

You said "A reduction in net profit margin does not mean they are not making a profit." but the -49% referred to looks like simply the yearly income - operating costs, not a comparison to year over year profits. I read it as a direct operating loss. Am I misreading that?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#3140 - 2015-12-29 01:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
King Aires wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
King Aires wrote:
CCP is an extremely unknown company that has been losing money for a while ...

Do you have a source for this?

I'd be interested in reading it.


CCP Financials thru 2014

Even in a good year like 2014 they were operating at a -49% net profit margin.

They had negative cash flow most years, and started floating bonds for cash.

The two seats sold for the VR partnership with Valkyrie and the loans to take the company private again makes me a bit worried they are in deeper trouble than the Eve-Offline numbers would suggest.

Thanks. I'm no accountant so some aspects of that look different to losing money, but I'll get someone better qualified than me to tell me what it means.

What I do know from my own company is that accounting losses are not necessarily the same thing as losing money, but that's not my part of the business so not something I'd be willing to offer an opinion on without having a more detailed explanation first.