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Why are Navy versions of modules used with their T2 equivalents?

Author
Jace Varus
Lemur Appreciation Society
#1 - 2015-12-28 18:06:10 UTC
I know there is more of a bonus from Navy modules, but why do some fits include two T2 modules, and two Navy modules of the same type? Don't the stacking penalties still count?
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2015-12-28 18:21:58 UTC
Fitting restrictions, Cost, Minmaxed efficiency with stacking pens, just because they can... etc etc.

Give examples of fits using this method and we can help explain the whys. Otherwise there are a hundred reasons why and I am forced to answer with the everlasting eve statement of:

It Depends.
Jace Varus
Lemur Appreciation Society
#3 - 2015-12-28 18:49:41 UTC
For example, in some Tengu fits, people will have two Ballistic Control System II s, and then another two Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Systems. Is this to negate the stacking penalties, or do stacking penalties not count with Navy modules?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#4 - 2015-12-28 19:13:09 UTC
Jace Varus wrote:
For example, in some Tengu fits, people will have two Ballistic Control System II s, and then another two Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Systems. Is this to negate the stacking penalties, or do stacking penalties not count with Navy modules?


Could be a price issue. A Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Unit cost 100m and a t2 costs 1m isk. However using 4 of them on any boat is just not a good idea.

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Hochopepa
Creative Research and Production Services
#5 - 2015-12-28 19:37:56 UTC
There are any number of reasons you might see this. Some faction mods have equivalent and/or higher bonuses while, in many cases, reduced skill, cpu and pg requirements. Could be that, this particular fit benefitted from CN BCUs and the pilot just hasn't gotten around to fitting 2 more or it could easily be that's what they had laying around.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#6 - 2015-12-28 20:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
elitatwo wrote:
Jace Varus wrote:
For example, in some Tengu fits, people will have two Ballistic Control System II s, and then another two Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Systems. Is this to negate the stacking penalties, or do stacking penalties not count with Navy modules?


Could be a price issue. A Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Unit cost 100m and a t2 costs 1m isk. However using 4 of them on any boat is just not a good idea.


plus Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Unit use only 24 CPU where T2 use 40 CPU. have 2/2 mean you save about 32 CPU for something else (good for 1 TP or 1 missile guidance)
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#7 - 2015-12-28 20:07:54 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Jace Varus wrote:
For example, in some Tengu fits, people will have two Ballistic Control System II s, and then another two Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Systems. Is this to negate the stacking penalties, or do stacking penalties not count with Navy modules?


Could be a price issue. A Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Unit cost 100m and a t2 costs 1m isk. However using 4 of them on any boat is just not a good idea.

for pve there isn't really much else to put in those slots that can do anything to boost efficiency. 4 or even 5 damage mods are somewhat standard. the 5th mod is typically a t2 damage rig as they give bigger bonuses than damage mods and will give a ~5% dps increase, a 5th BCU would be almost completely wasted.

the 2/2 or 3/1 style fittings are typically either to save cost or fitting. most damage mods have gotten pricey at 50mil I don't really mind fitting four, but at 100m I'd rather fit two or three. And I'm pretty sure someone else said it, but faction damage mods typically use way less CPU making them an easy option to get some fits to work. I have one fit where 2x t2 maxes out the cpu and I have to fit nanos in the last few slots, if I swapped to faction damage mods I could get 3 on.

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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2015-12-28 20:45:52 UTC
Jace Varus wrote:
For example, in some Tengu fits, people will have two Ballistic Control System II s, and then another two Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Systems. Is this to negate the stacking penalties, or do stacking penalties not count with Navy modules?


To answer this explicitly: they are in the same stack. However, the calculation goes something along the lines of "well, CN BCUs run 100mil and T2s run 1mil. If I can run the first two at 12.5% bonuses, then once I hit a 57% stacking penalty a 10% base bonus might not be so bad."

Basically, cost issue.

The fitting detail that people have brought up is also totally valid.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#9 - 2015-12-28 23:50:12 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
for pve there isn't really much else to put in those slots that can do anything to boost efficiency. 4 or even 5 damage mods are somewhat standard. the 5th mod is typically a t2 damage rig as they give bigger bonuses than damage mods and will give a ~5% dps increase, a 5th BCU would be almost completely wasted.

the 2/2 or 3/1 style fittings are typically either to save cost or fitting. most damage mods have gotten pricey at 50mil I don't really mind fitting four, but at 100m I'd rather fit two or three. And I'm pretty sure someone else said it, but faction damage mods typically use way less CPU making them an easy option to get some fits to work. I have one fit where 2x t2 maxes out the cpu and I have to fit nanos in the last few slots, if I swapped to faction damage mods I could get 3 on.


Chainsaw, missile guidance enhancer. Heavy missile application is still not where I remember it Sad

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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#10 - 2015-12-29 00:25:11 UTC
I'd rather use a mid for a painter/MGC than a low. Although I haven't played with a tengu in a few years now.

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#11 - 2015-12-29 05:23:50 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
I'd rather use a mid for a painter/MGC than a low. Although I haven't played with a tengu in a few years now.


I get that. To be honest, I don't fly those as much as the regular ships and I am still at the figuring those out phase. Just finished the last Legion subsystem maybe 8 weeks ago.

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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#12 - 2015-12-29 08:31:24 UTC
If I post a PvE fit with 2x navy damage mods and 2x T2 mods, it's because the overall cost to gank it works out the same as the maximum loot reward, but because it's based on chance, the actual loot reward is probably less than the cost to gank.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-12-29 09:18:22 UTC
Jace Varus wrote:
For example, in some Tengu fits, people will have two Ballistic Control System II s, and then another two Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Systems. Is this to negate the stacking penalties, or do stacking penalties not count with Navy modules?



Check the FITTING of both modules and you will understand...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#14 - 2015-12-31 02:04:21 UTC
In addition to all of the aforementioned reasons, you only get 100% of the bonus from the first two Faction BCs. So this is an extra +5% damage most of the time. You get less than +1% additional damage running an additional pair of Faction BCUs, so unless it's a fitting issue it hardly justifies the additional cost. Until missile guidance enhancers came along players typically ran a 4th BCU because there wasn't really any other options. A 4th BCU will still typically add ~+5% DPS, however.

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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#15 - 2015-12-31 05:40:31 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
In addition to all of the aforementioned reasons, you only get 100% of the bonus from the first two Faction BCs. So this is an extra +5% damage most of the time. You get less than +1% additional damage running an additional pair of Faction BCUs, so unless it's a fitting issue it hardly justifies the additional cost. Until missile guidance enhancers came along players typically ran a 4th BCU because there wasn't really any other options. A 4th BCU will still typically add ~+5% DPS, however.


Your numbers are off but the idea is about right. The first T2 BCU adds a total of 22.91% more DPS. The second takes that to a total of a 47.37% increase (that is, you get a slightly increased amount of absolute gain from the second damage mod despite stacking penalty). A third T2 BCU gets you up to a 66.63% increase from no mods (so still not bad; almost a third more on the third mod). The fourth T2 BCU gets you to a total of 77.43% over base -- and now we're seeing actual stacking really set in.

So let's get those numbers gathered in a readable form. For T2 BCUs, the increase from base damage is as follows:

1: 22.91%
2: 47.37%
3: 66.63%
4: 77.43%

Same list, but now we're using CN BCUs:

1: 25.70%
2: 53.77%
3: 76.32% (notice here that three CN BCUs performs about as well as four T2 BCUs)
4: 89.14%

Now since it's the actual topic at hand, here are the increases from 2 CN and then 2 T2:

1: 25.70%
2: 53.77%
3: 74.36%
4: 85.94%

This third option costs half what the second one does (more or less) and still does significantly better than straight T2.

Of course to really do it right what you want is a T2 ROF rig. Assuming the final layout adding a rig on top now gives:

1: 45.85%
2: 72.75%
3: 95.78%
4: 98.21%

At that point it's fairly clear that the fourth damage mod is a bit of a waste either way.

(Please note that numbers do not include reload time. RoF stats obviously increase how often you have to reload and don't quite give the paper increase you're looking at. But between reloads... well.)
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2015-12-31 11:23:24 UTC
If you see a battleship that has 3x faction damage mods and then 1 t2, it is because the stacking penalty is so high that a fourth faction mod wouldn't be worth it, a t2 would suffice.