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Why does everyone (sort of) want to make GANKING easier ?
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Ocih
Space Mermaids
#121 - 2012-01-08 19:12:23 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
I've explained it several times but I'm always happy to help so I'll explain it again.

You create two bookmarks on opposite sides of the asteroid you want to mine...both of them 200-300km away. Warp to your asteroid and start mining while aligning to one of your bookmarks at 75% speed. Before you travel out of range of your asteroid turn around and align to your other bookmark. Repeat as needed. Warp out as soon as the big bad ganker enters the belt.

Super simple but most miners don't want to put forth the effort and would rather sit stil and be tabbed out to the forums where they post on the forums about how unfair life is.


This as with all things EVE does not solve the problem. it simply denies the griefer a prize.

For Ore mining it also assumes you have lots of rocks that you can run 3 strips on and 1 on 3 rocks.
For Ice it would actually work quite well but in both cases the ability to mine is still being eliminated by the griefer. So dock up and log out is the only available option once a griefer has his hooks in.

So pay to don't play EVE.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2012-01-08 19:21:24 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
I've explained it several times but I'm always happy to help so I'll explain it again.

You create two bookmarks on opposite sides of the asteroid you want to mine...both of them 200-300km away. Warp to your asteroid and start mining while aligning to one of your bookmarks at 75% speed. Before you travel out of range of your asteroid turn around and align to your other bookmark. Repeat as needed. Warp out as soon as the big bad ganker enters the belt.

Super simple but most miners don't want to put forth the effort and would rather sit stil and be tabbed out to the forums where they post on the forums about how unfair life is.


This as with all things EVE does not solve the problem.

What is the problem? Ganking is part of the game...not some problem that needs to be fixed.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#123 - 2012-01-09 03:29:28 UTC
Ocih wrote:


For Ore mining it also assumes you have lots of rocks that you can run 3 strips on and 1 on 3 rocks.
For Ice it would actually work quite well but in both cases the ability to mine is still being eliminated by the griefer. So dock up and log out is the only available option once a griefer has his hooks in.

So pay to don't play EVE.


CCP made a safe zone...

Without people killing people (including ganking miners), there'd be no demand for minerals. tl;dr in case youze afwaid of the link-monster.

I mined in hisec for quite a long time. Was never ganked, was never canflipped, nothing. Now I have about a freighter and a half worth of minerals in my hangar (that I stockpiled over about 3 months), and I haven't owned a Hulk in over a year. Don't even live in drone space.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#124 - 2012-01-09 03:50:55 UTC
SmegB wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:

Or relieving of stress load, creating connection in your head which could or not be there. There is more to it then simple one liner
Response - Idiot.




Say WHAT ?????


Depend on response.
Sure if you going to smack talk and rage on local/eve-mail-private convo then you are probably out of your head.

But well there is some interesting read . .about Morality choices etc. having fun from other people suffering etc.
Game or not. You are real when you playing, your enjoyment is real. I dont fully agree with any stance because it is strongly individual, and i dont truly believe in what i wrote/said.

But such connection is indeed an response and it doesnt mean those people are idiots, They just over-do it. In other words they take it too seriously.


Ow you got to love when people compare this to real life. What if i told you i worked in law enforcement and murdering people in a game brings me alot of enjoyment. How messed up is my moral compass frued?


I would say, a lot. Whether you realize it or not. However, I don't believe you do/are.

To define real or RL: Sure, the game may be about a fictional reality, characters, and the like, but the person behind each of those characters, (with the exception of bots), is very real. Real life, real person, real feelings; and whether you like it or not, a very real effort and time requirement to achieve what they have in game in most cases.

Anyone who is up for a fight is generally more or less prepared for it. Players who get randomly ganked hauling their savings from three months of playing to Jita, are generally not.

The psychological response mechanism is approximately the same as having someone approach you with a threatening manner on the street at night, demanding money or cigarettes while carrying a weapon or concealing one in a fashion you can notice.

To a lesser degree perhaps, depending on the person. Frankly, as I worked my way through the game early on and struggled to aquire better ships, modules, and a more effective way of earning ISK; I had basically this response the few times I got ganked while trying to collect buy orders, or accidently jumping into lowsec while mission running.

What I had at the time pretty much accounted for everything I'd aquired in game, and a great deal of time and effort on my part. 30-40 hours of working for something, and losing it hurts. This magnifies any response you have.

On the street it's potentially your life you lose; in EVE, it's just your time. Until you care less about that effort, you're unlikely to be free of that reaction/response.

That's real. So it's RL.
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Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2012-01-09 03:53:38 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
To define real or RL: Sure, the game may be about a fictional reality, characters, and the like, but the person behind each of those characters, (with the exception of bots), is very real. Real life, real person, real feelings; and whether you like it or not, a very real effort and time requirement to achieve what they have in game in most cases.

Anyone who is up for a fight is generally more or less prepared for it. Players who get randomly ganked hauling their savings from three months of playing to Jita, are generally not

In Eve you should be "up for a fight" as soon as you hit the undock button. There are other games that work like you describe but Eve is not one of them.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#126 - 2012-01-09 04:00:55 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
STUFF


Here's the thing. In real life I choose to live in a society which protects me pretty well (and allows me very free access to firearms in the even society's protections fail). If it were fun to live in EVE, I'd move to Somalia. (The Libertarian Paradise)

Were I to move to Somalia (fully aware of the danger), I wouldn't have any right to expect not to get shot immediately, (This is charicature Somalia, real Somalia's probably better/worse), nor would I have the right to whine about how it was unfair I got shot when I was just carrying a sack of potatoes/gold to sell.

(People born there probably have the right to complain about fairness. They didn't get a choice. But that's besides the point)

If I wanted to enjoy a similar level of protection in my MMO gaming experience, I would choose a different game. I would not move to MMO Somalia and expect the protections offered by MMO Western World.

EVE is MMO Somalia. It's dirty, gritty, dangerous. (Because it's a game, that happens to be a recipe for a hell of a lot of fun)

WoW(and so many others) is MMO Western World. Bright, Clean, Safe. (Some people like that, YMMV)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#127 - 2012-01-09 04:11:21 UTC
Ruby Porto wrote:
nor would I have the right to whine about how it was unfair I got shot when I was just carrying a sack of potatoes/gold to sell.


If you really believe that; then you have some serious issues.

You're implying by that statement, that because Somalia is a different place on the other side of the world, that has a very different system of government, laws, and definition of human rights; that it is perfectly fine for what happens there to take place, and nobody who lives there, by choice or otherwise, really has any reason to complain about it.

Essentially, that means-by that assessment-that it is okay for people to violate human rights, murder, and commit crimes against humanity in places like that.

Really?

I don't think so.
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#128 - 2012-01-09 04:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mars Theran wrote:
Ruby Porto wrote:
nor would I have the right to whine about how it was unfair I got shot when I was just carrying a sack of potatoes/gold to sell.


If you really believe that; then you have some serious issues.

You're implying by that statement, that because Somalia is a different place on the other side of the world, that has a very different system of government, laws, and definition of human rights; that it is perfectly fine for what happens there to take place, and nobody who lives there, by choice or otherwise, really has any reason to complain about it.

Essentially, that means-by that assessment-that it is okay for people to violate human rights, murder, and commit crimes against humanity in places like that.

Really?

I don't think so.


RubyPorto wrote:

(People born there probably have the right to complain about fairness. They didn't get a choice. But that's besides the point)


I said that if I move to Somalia, Fully aware of the situation there, I should probably expect to get shot a couple(dozen) times. And I really wouldn't have a leg to stand on (possibly literally [too soon for landmine humor? Ok]), because I CHOSE to move there fully aware of the ramifications.

This doesn't mean I like the situation in Somalia, but the situation there is currently what it is, and has been for 20 years, so the situation shouldn't exactly be surprising for someone moving to there. It also doesn't mean that I think those who do the shooting of REAL, LIVE, PEOPLE aren't monsters.

Thanks for reading my post and stopping halfway through.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#129 - 2012-01-09 04:20:21 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
To define real or RL: Sure, the game may be about a fictional reality, characters, and the like, but the person behind each of those characters, (with the exception of bots), is very real. Real life, real person, real feelings; and whether you like it or not, a very real effort and time requirement to achieve what they have in game in most cases.

Anyone who is up for a fight is generally more or less prepared for it. Players who get randomly ganked hauling their savings from three months of playing to Jita, are generally not

In Eve you should be "up for a fight" as soon as you hit the undock button. There are other games that work like you describe but Eve is not one of them.


Being up for a fight, requires you have the means to recover from it relatively quickly.

My point was that, in the event an indivdual is spending hours to earn very small amounts of ISK, doesn't buy RMT goods or PLEX with large amounts of expendable cash, and is essentially flying everything it has taken him/her 85+ hours to afford in game; that indivdual is not going to be prepared for a fight, or have any ability to recover from it quickly.

Skill Point aquisition and networking increases earning per hour; so the argument that a 4-1/2 year character can just go out and spend a few hours to get back in a Battle Cruiser or BS, is relatively invalid. At low SP, (1-3 million), and just learning the game with few friends or contacts, recovering from that sort of situation can be a real pain in the ***.Even at 5-10 million SP it can be hard.

Being ready for a fight is not so easy as you imply; particualrly for a newer player. Even more so, for a newer player who is unfamiliar with the game. That's why we have highsec.
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Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#130 - 2012-01-09 04:33:18 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Ruby Porto wrote:
nor would I have the right to whine about how it was unfair I got shot when I was just carrying a sack of potatoes/gold to sell.


If you really believe that; then you have some serious issues.

You're implying by that statement, that because Somalia is a different place on the other side of the world, that has a very different system of government, laws, and definition of human rights; that it is perfectly fine for what happens there to take place, and nobody who lives there, by choice or otherwise, really has any reason to complain about it.

Essentially, that means-by that assessment-that it is okay for people to violate human rights, murder, and commit crimes against humanity in places like that.

Really?

I don't think so.


RubyPorto wrote:

(People born there probably have the right to complain about fairness. They didn't get a choice. But that's besides the point)


I said that if I move to Somalia, Fully aware of the situation there, I should probably expect to get shot a couple(dozen) times. And I really wouldn't have a leg to stand on (possibly literally [too soon for landmine humor? Ok]), because I CHOSE to move there fully aware of the ramifications.

This doesn't mean I like the situation in Somalia, but the situation there is currently what it is, and has been for 20 years, so the situation shouldn't exactly be surprising for someone moving to there. It also doesn't mean that I think those who do the shooting of REAL, LIVE, PEOPLE aren't monsters.

Thanks for reading my post and stopping halfway through.


I read the rest of it after, if that's any consolation. I didn't really believe you felt that way; I was just making a point.

As for the WoW stuff, I tend to pretty much go blank when I see comments of that nature. Never liked WoW, and never will. Specifically though, EVE doesn't have to be that harsh and cold for everyone, and it doesn't have to be sushine and lollipops either.

EVE has different levels of security space, and in-game mechanics that are intended to create different levels of the PvP experience. That is the way it is designed. There are different layers to the harsh reality of EVE; a semblence of variety, to allow for different playstyles and interests.

The only thing that is changing that, or attempting to change that, is the playerbase who enjoys ganking and griefing other players. It is griefing, yes; in many cases. Read back through the responses and posts in this thread; and you'll see it freely admited that that is the intention and what is desired as a result. The grief of other players.

Anything that is intentionally done to upset another indivdual, or cause them to lose their temper or flare up in an emotional outburst is griefing. If it is not done for that sole purpose, then it is not; even if that is the result.

Players trying to loosen the restrictions in High and Lowsec, to better allow them to achieve these results through ganking and other related activities, (including wardecs), is what this thread is trying to address; even if it is only formulated as a question to that effect.

So, the question has been answered many times in this thread; all you have to do is look to see it.
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Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2012-01-09 04:35:05 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Being ready for a fight is not so easy as you imply; particualrly for a newer player. Even more so, for a newer player who is unfamiliar with the game. That's why we have highsec.

If highsec was meant to be completely safe we wouldn't be able to gank people there. I think the root of your problem is that you are under the impression that high sec is supposed to be consequence-free place where you can do whatever you want without others interfering and that anybody who blows you up is somehow cheating. I'm sorry to tell you that highsec isn't safe. You can be shot at by anybody at any time.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#132 - 2012-01-09 04:39:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Being ready for a fight is not so easy as you imply; particualrly for a newer player. Even more so, for a newer player who is unfamiliar with the game. That's why we have highsec.

If highsec was meant to be completely safe we wouldn't be able to gank people there. I think the root of your problem is that you are under the impression that high sec is supposed to be consequence-free place where you can do whatever you want without others interfering and that anybody who blows you up is somehow cheating. I'm sorry to tell you that highsec isn't safe. You can be shot at by anybody at any time.


I never said that; I only defined that there were varying levels of harsh in this reality, and Highsec was the lightest of them. Really, if I had 50 billion ISK, I'd sacrifice ships like shoe leather; just like you.

edit: Pardon me. That particular alt/character doesn't even appear to have been in a fight; so you'll have to confirm that for me.
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Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2012-01-09 04:45:45 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
I never said that; I only defined that there were varying levels of harsh in this reality, and Highsec was the lightest of them. Really, if I had 50 billion ISK, I'd sacrifice ships like shoe leather; just like you..

I don't have 50 billion isk. I'm just lucky enough to belong to an alliance that reimburses me for the ships I "sacrifice".

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#134 - 2012-01-09 05:09:00 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:

I read the rest of it after, if that's any consolation. I didn't really believe you felt that way; I was just making a point.


So... you decided to proverbially open your mouth and remove all doubt. Then used the slightly wordier version of the teen "J/K, like ell-oh-ell" to cover. Gotcha. Fair enough.

Quote:

As for the WoW stuff, I tend to pretty much go blank when I see comments of that nature. Never liked WoW, and never will. Specifically though, EVE doesn't have to be that harsh and cold for everyone, and it doesn't have to be sushine and lollipops either.

EVE has different levels of security space, and in-game mechanics that are intended to create different levels of the PvP experience. That is the way it is designed. There are different layers to the harsh reality of EVE; a semblence of variety, to allow for different playstyles and interests.

The only thing that is changing that, or attempting to change that, is the playerbase who enjoys ganking and griefing other players. It is griefing, yes; in many cases. Read back through the responses and posts in this thread; and you'll see it freely admited that that is the intention and what is desired as a result. The grief of other players.

Anything that is intentionally done to upset another indivdual, or cause them to lose their temper or flare up in an emotional outburst is griefing. If it is not done for that sole purpose, then it is not; even if that is the result.

Players trying to loosen the restrictions in High and Lowsec, to better allow them to achieve these results through ganking and other related activities, (including wardecs), is what this thread is trying to address; even if it is only formulated as a question to that effect.

So, the question has been answered many times in this thread; all you have to do is look to see it.


EvE's EULA, and TOS/Player Conduct Guide fail to mention this "Griefing" you speak of. They mention Harassment and quite narrowly define it. If you can find a place where those two documents mention this so called "Griefing" I'd love to see it.

EvE does have different levels of Sec space. With them come different PvP mechanics. None have ever been meant to be safe. The only thing that has been changing in HiSec is that it has become continually *MORE* profitable while at the same time becoming *MORE* secure.

CONCORD Buff from Tankable/Escapable to OMGWTFBBQWINBUTAN (Good Change, IMHO)
Insurance Nerf, no more suicide gank insurance (Sensible Change, cause the old way made no sense)
WarDec Bork (WTF, CCP?)

L4s in Hisec, there once were only 3 levels of Missions (Good Change)
Hisec Incursion farming (Incursions = Good, 100m isk/hr in singlebox HiSec PvE?=No so good, and crushed 0.0's population when the Sanctum nerf came by[this is why so much space is empty])

So what's this about the Ganker's causing changes? It's the Carebear whining (and ingenuity in the case of Incursion farming) that's causing changes in EvE's Hisec, and it's not in favor of the ganker.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176

^^ A really well written gudpost on the topic.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2012-01-09 05:16:20 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
EvE's EULA, and TOS/Player Conduct Guide fail to mention this "Griefing" you speak of. They mention Harassment and quite narrowly define it. If you can find a place where those two documents mention this so called "Griefing" I'd love to see it.

I haven't looked at the ToS for a while but it the term they used to use was "Grief Play" or something like that so you have to search for 'grief' not 'griefing'.

Either way the ToS states that blowing up ships in highsec isn't griefing and isn't against any rules.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#136 - 2012-01-09 05:29:59 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
EvE's EULA, and TOS/Player Conduct Guide fail to mention this "Griefing" you speak of. They mention Harassment and quite narrowly define it. If you can find a place where those two documents mention this so called "Griefing" I'd love to see it.

I haven't looked at the ToS for a while but it the term they used to use was "Grief Play" or something like that so you have to search for 'grief' not 'griefing'.

Either way the ToS states that blowing up ships in highsec isn't griefing and isn't against any rules.


Neither mention "Grief", "Griefing", "Suicide", "Destroy"

They do mention play a combined total of 76 times. Probably because it's a Game.

Harassment is mentioned twice in the EULA:
Both times regarding language.

And 3 times in the TOS:
All three regarding either language or other verbal conduct.

EULA:
http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.asp

TOS:
http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp

Mars, feel free to check my work.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#137 - 2012-01-09 05:42:49 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
I never said that; I only defined that there were varying levels of harsh in this reality, and Highsec was the lightest of them. Really, if I had 50 billion ISK, I'd sacrifice ships like shoe leather; just like you..

I don't have 50 billion isk. I'm just lucky enough to belong to an alliance that reimburses me for the ships I "sacrifice".


I wasn't really asking for clarification on whether you have 50 billion ISK or are backed by 50 billion ISK; but rather whether you actually sacrifice ships aplenty on another character. Doesn't really matter whether you sacrifice your own or someone elses.
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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#138 - 2012-01-09 05:46:07 UTC
you don't get an insurance payout for getting concorded any more, so suicide ganking should be made easier!

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#139 - 2012-01-09 05:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mars Theran wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
I never said that; I only defined that there were varying levels of harsh in this reality, and Highsec was the lightest of them. Really, if I had 50 billion ISK, I'd sacrifice ships like shoe leather; just like you..

I don't have 50 billion isk. I'm just lucky enough to belong to an alliance that reimburses me for the ships I "sacrifice".


I wasn't really asking for clarification on whether you have 50 billion ISK or are backed by 50 billion ISK; but rather whether you actually sacrifice ships aplenty on another character. Doesn't really matter whether you sacrifice your own or someone elses.


Riftahs B Cheap (the purchase price of a Hulk is probably enough to keep you in them forever, esp in a fleet context where you really don't need t2 or even Meta)

For mining:
Ibisis B Chappest
Also
Covetors B Cheap
Retrievers B Cheaper

People make do just fine without t2 ships (or SRP) for PvP and Money Making.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#140 - 2012-01-09 05:55:07 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
you don't get an insurance payout for getting concorded any more

Goons do.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.