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Factional Warfare revamp.
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Esnaelc Sin'led
Lonesome Capsuleer
#1 - 2015-12-08 23:27:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Esnaelc Sin'led
Thoughts i've thrown in an old topic that was talking about faction hits on smart bombing.
( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=428680 )

And we are still waiting for some tweaks here and there about the whole mecanics of Factional Warfare.

I thought we were being listened to :
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3cwj2v/suspect_timers_on_entering_fw_plexes_confirmed/
but we're still waiting.

There're a couple of things to do regarding FW mechanics in my opinion, and that's just 5 points among a whole lot of others that could enhance that type of game in Eve Online.
And I really believe that it would match the whole "new-bro-friendly-focus" era CCP seems to be in this last year by releasing so much content for small-sized ships and low SPed players :

1. 2 factions vs 2 factions :
Let FW be a 1v3 space. With this, no more awoxing possible from the other "allied" faction.
Plus, from a RolePlay point of view, alliance would still be possible, as long as you chose to cease fire with a said-corporation of a said-faction. Player relations would "really" matter / diplomacy as well / history / reputation / etcetera...

2. Faction standing hits :
While hitting Militia allies in the same fleet, or destroying a wreck with a militia tag on it, or a pod being in that fleet you should not lose FW standing.
Would match point 1. as FCs would allow people getting in their fleets carefully to avoid any kind of "gaming" that rule around.
Like in RL, errors would still occure, that's a good thing !
Another way would consist of raising by an enormous amount the standing bonuses we get from plexing, and even more while DEplexing.

3. SecStatus hits :
It's been discussed already, and i think that's a great idea : getting timers on accelaration gate activation.
But i was thinking about something more "radical", i admit it's not well thought yet :
If a neutral chose to come and hunt for a militian he should therefore "suffer" from such a choice one way or the other.
By getting a Faction standing hit ? Why not ? We are fighting for this very faction after all, right ?
Just like one would take a hit by firing upon a Sansha NPC or Blood Raider NPC ?
Limit that in complexes, otherwise it would kill fleet roams Neutral Fleets vs Faction Fleets.

4. Emphasising PvP over Farming complexes :
Raise LP earned from KILLS / Lower LP earned by plexes alone.
A lot of what is STILL annoying with farmers is not that they just flee combat with cloacks and WCSs but that they PUSH systems while farming and not taking care at all of the impacts to "true" militians.
They farm as a militia of Faction A in a system of faction B to earn the best possible LP amount, but at the same time, they raise its vulnerability to the point where "true" militians of faction A come to take it over without any "push operation", just jumping onto the occasion.
On the other side, faction B if well aware, has to farm back to stablise it, and that could be a pain to do this specially if there is no fight from the ennemy faction that would have pushed this system in purpose and for an ACTUAL conquest operation.

5. Emphasise the "faction" membership :
In order to prettify (?) FW reputation it would be great if, let's say the number of systems earned by Faction A would give bonuses in each and every Faction A systems for all sorts of activity : PvE / Industry / Mining / Taxes / .. ///
Lowered taxes, improved production time, raised missions rewards, loot drop rate raised, spawn rate raised, etc... don't know.
This way we might see some HUBs changing locations, or people engaging even for a month or 2 or 3 in FW just to get bonuses, so what ? That's good ! It's like engaging people for a War we need to win, till we have to fight again !
Bonuses in HS mean more potential engagements in FW, more activity, more fights, more turn-over AND a positive reputation as their destiny would be tied to a whole Faction area.

/discuss ?

Also, if any CSM or CCP guy reads this by any chance, is this possible (for real) that in a near future (for real near) we might see (for real) a FW-Discussion-Group juste like you did for capitals or T3 Dessies ?
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2 - 2015-12-09 01:47:28 UTC
1. Fine
2. Not sure, could be an option for the fc I suppose
3. If they bring that in then everyone who enters a plex should go suspect
4. They tried that and goons gamed it. Nerfing plex income means even less people running plexes solo, and that includes players who fight which is the opposite of whats needed.
5. Sounds nice, but probably be abused by big entities.
Valentine al-Askari
Khyber
#3 - 2015-12-09 06:40:10 UTC
oh but they did they made missions literally unplayable You get webed 40km+ out and you have be able to tank 1000 oncoming dps yea good luck the totaly messed up the only thing i realy enjoyed doing solo
Nameira Vanis-Tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-12-09 14:00:16 UTC
Valentine al-Askari wrote:
oh but they did they made missions literally unplayable You get webed 40km+ out and you have be able to tank 1000 oncoming dps yea good luck the totaly messed up the only thing i realy enjoyed doing solo


You can still do them solo, you just have to fly something that is more likely to expose you to PVP.

I think the additions to the missions are a good thing for Cal and Mini Mil. It means that their LP will gain more value over time increasing the ISK of those who are more likely to be fighting in FW.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#5 - 2015-12-09 14:50:46 UTC
Something it is worth remembering, and that I have to remind myself all the time, is there are only so many devs available at CCP. A lot of stuff was confirmed by CCP Affinity, but that doesn't mean it'll be in the game tomorrow, but I trust in team space glitter.

JUSTK is recruiting
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-12-09 17:11:03 UTC
1. This is pretty much the CCP Plan - all out 4 way war. Not sure how it's going to be implemented, but we can reasonably expect to see some focus in early-mid 2016 (gotta get Citadels out and stable first).

2. One of the ways CCP has talked about managing the standings issue is to not have standings impact your ability to fly for a faction in FW. I'm assuming that the back end spaghetti code makes decoupling things difficult at the moment, and as a work-around this isn't a bad one. Also keep in mind that it's entirely possible to have a negative faction standing and a high standing with the militia corp - I've got +9.6 with FDU for example, but -0.74 with Gallente because I may have accidentally on purpose podded my CEO and a few awoxers.

3. Neutrals already get a faction hit for shooting militia members IIRC - FuzzySteve had a tweet about this a few months back. Adding in suspect timers in plexes will go a long way to making FW more liveable for those who want to keep their sec status relatively high. A lot of us basically said screw it and are managing just fine as dirty dirty piwats.

4. I personally believe the farming issue is overblown, and to some degree is "working as intended". FW is occupancy sov at it's most pure, requiring constant attention to your AOR in order to keep it secure. People need to adjust their expectations of how much space a corp / alliance can control under those conditions. People also need to remember that the vast majority of FW pilots are not based in the warzone, and are not actively involved in maintaining warzone control. They passively contribute some pressure here and there, but the real work is done by PvP focused corps living in the WZ.

That said, I fully support the idea of setting PvP LP gains equal to what you'd get at Tier 5. CCP can't push it any higher than that because of exploitability (grr gewns).

5. There's a sticky at the top of this forum for ideas on how to make FW space unique, how ownership of FW space should impact things like Citadels or other structures in the future. I totally agree that ownership should have some benefits, and the current iHub upgrade / Tier system just isn't working in any meaningful sense.

In all though, CCP is listening, it just takes time. Adding fast webbing frigates, for example, was first proposed back at the FW roundtable at FanFest 2014 (taking a bow for that one...). Dev resources have to have been majorly stretched given the development pace and massive reworks to core systems / gameplay over the past year, with a whole lot more along those lines to come. Sugar Kyle had to fight pretty hard to get a FW session during the winter summit, after all, but a lot of what we had been talking about in Slack etc. was raised during that time.

Realistically though, FW lowsec is probably the healthiest area of the game at the moment. While we've got our pain points and there's definitely things that can be improved, it's in a lot healthier state than sov null or WH space has been for a very long time indeed. So, we need to recognize that other areas of the game need more attention than we do, and be a bit patient on that front.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-12-09 20:22:55 UTC
Valentine al-Askari wrote:
oh but they did they made missions literally unplayable You get webed 40km+ out and you have be able to tank 1000 oncoming dps yea good luck the totaly messed up the only thing i realy enjoyed doing solo


People are literally still making loads of isk doing FW solo, so they are literally still playable.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#8 - 2015-12-11 08:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Master Sergeant MacRobert
Veskrashen wrote:


4. I personally believe the farming issue is overblown, and to some degree is "working as intended". FW is occupancy sov at it's most pure, requiring constant attention to your AOR in order to keep it secure. People need to adjust their expectations of how much space a corp / alliance can control under those conditions. People also need to remember that the vast majority of FW pilots are not based in the warzone, and are not actively involved in maintaining warzone control. They passively contribute some pressure here and there, but the real work is done by PvP focused corps living in the WZ.

That said, I fully support the idea of setting PvP LP gains equal to what you'd get at Tier 5. CCP can't push it any higher than that because of exploitability (grr gewns).



This is completing missing the point Vesk.

Farmers

The problem is that FW has lost countless active players who were content seekers (of the interactive kind) due to the fact that the chance of them finding that content was diminished significantly by a population full of (non-interactive) players working the mechanism solely for harvesting isk through LP. (At minimal risk for huge reward - the system has encouraged the farming alt for a long time).

Not everyone plays 30+ hours per week. Many players who did have now aged 10years and picked up lives that have changed their ability to give Eve the time that certain mechanism require.

What you will find is that many of those players still want to play Eve and have fun but they go to FW for a conflict and for PvP primarily. They play on a casual basis and expect to have fun with the few hours they have. They may be on for 15 hours this week they may be on for one day this month for 3 hours. They don't expect to control the warzone but they do expect Eve to deliver fun in the limited amount of time they play.

If it doesn't deliver they quit and play something else. The last few years have seen this happen.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#9 - 2015-12-11 12:01:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
As a father of four, I understand the pressure of choosing your activities. You can still do the missions, but your ship will most likely be as expensive as the ones we need to run them. The webbing frig,I hated the idea, but just like two opposing rat spawns suggested for defensive plexing, it will work. Get a t3d and alpha that web frigate off field first. Adapt and figure it out. PI is not a bad passive way to keep your Isk up if you're really busy. I recommend you fellas get some lachesis to catch expensive amarr bombers when they inevitably hit T4 or up.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#10 - 2015-12-24 12:59:30 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
1. This is pretty much the CCP Plan - all out 4 way war. Not sure how it's going to be implemented, but we can reasonably expect to see some focus in early-mid 2016 (gotta get Citadels out and stable first).


Source? I'm genuinely interested.
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
#11 - 2015-12-25 20:28:07 UTC
1vs3 is not reason for FW and it is totally unfriendly for newbies, because 1vs3 you need sell/transport alt and most of hisec area is inaccessible...

sry for my English :-(
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#12 - 2015-12-25 22:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
exiik Shardani wrote:
1vs3 is not reason for FW and it is totally unfriendly for newbies, because 1vs3 you need sell/transport alt and most of hisec area is inaccessible...


Takes half a day to train a Nereus to average skill. Join a larger group for more logistics back-bone. You have access to 1 contract without any skills in trading. No second account necessary; you have three character slots per account.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#13 - 2015-12-25 22:12:03 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
exiik Shardani wrote:
1vs3 is not reason for FW and it is totally unfriendly for newbies, because 1vs3 you need sell/transport alt and most of hisec area is inaccessible...


Takes half a day to train a Nereus to average skill. Join a larger group for more logistics back-bone. No 2nd account required; you have access to 1 contract without any skills in trading. No second account necessary; you have three character slots per account.


Four-way war would be too restrictive though. Losing access to Amarr space would make it leaving the militia more worthwhile than keeping on.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#14 - 2015-12-25 22:28:12 UTC
Why do you find it necessary to have access high sec Amarr space? I'm not understanding, especially if this is coming from Calmil, who have Jita.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#15 - 2015-12-25 22:42:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Let's just say that I have 9.90 Empire standing. I've put in some time to get it and having to forfeit it is a really bad choice. Having to forfeit FW membership is a really bad choice too, but ultimately the less painful one.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#16 - 2015-12-29 18:00:07 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
...

In all though, CCP is listening, it just takes time. Adding fast webbing frigates, for example, was first proposed back at the FW roundtable at FanFest 2014 (taking a bow for that one...). Dev resources have to have been majorly stretched given the development pace and massive reworks to core systems / gameplay over the past year, with a whole lot more along those lines to come. Sugar Kyle had to fight pretty hard to get a FW session during the winter summit, after all, but a lot of what we had been talking about in Slack etc. was raised during that time.



Balancing missions has been an issue long before inferno and there were lots of ways they could have done it. I'm not bashing ccp but to suggest that they acted on this since the problem was recognized in 2014 is misleading. I'm pretty sure webbing frigates were proposed before 2014 - I am not going to dig it up but there were always plenty of options including painters, webs, missiles, fast frigate rats, etc that could have eliminated the solo sb.

CCP has dropped the ball on changes they promised years ago to make plexing more pvp focused.(e.g., timer rollbacks and better intel tools) At the last csm meeting on "faction war and pve" they didn't even mention what they promised years ago and no one AFAIK has a clue if they have any intent on following through with their promises.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=443761
It seems they just moved back to fiddling with pve. I wish I were wrong on this.


Veskrashen wrote:

Realistically though, FW lowsec is probably the healthiest area of the game at the moment. While we've got our pain points and there's definitely things that can be improved, it's in a lot healthier state than sov null or WH space has been for a very long time indeed. So, we need to recognize that other areas of the game need more attention than we do, and be a bit patient on that front.


I'm not familiar with what changes effected WH space. But I think the jury is still out on sov null sec. Sure certain big groups who liked to hot drop across new eden got upset. But that left room for many smaller groups that want to claim a few systems. I really think allot of the faction war players who say they want more reason to hold space and claim it should give the new null sec sov a try. IMO the game will do better without fw becoming like null sec sov. I really like the current version of null sec sov but I think more diversity in the game is important.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#17 - 2015-12-30 11:32:26 UTC
Esnaelc Sin'led wrote:
Thoughts i've thrown in an old topic that was talking about faction hits on smart bombing.
( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=428680 )

And we are still waiting for some tweaks here and there about the whole mecanics of Factional Warfare.

I thought we were being listened to :
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3cwj2v/suspect_timers_on_entering_fw_plexes_confirmed/
but we're still waiting.

There're a couple of things to do regarding FW mechanics in my opinion, and that's just 5 points among a whole lot of others that could enhance that type of game in Eve Online.
And I really believe that it would match the whole "new-bro-friendly-focus" era CCP seems to be in this last year by releasing so much content for small-sized ships and low SPed players :

1. 2 factions vs 2 factions :
Let FW be a 1v3 space. With this, no more awoxing possible from the other "allied" faction.
Plus, from a RolePlay point of view, alliance would still be possible, as long as you chose to cease fire with a said-corporation of a said-faction. Player relations would "really" matter / diplomacy as well / history / reputation / etcetera...

2. Faction standing hits :
While hitting Militia allies in the same fleet, or destroying a wreck with a militia tag on it, or a pod being in that fleet you should not lose FW standing.
Would match point 1. as FCs would allow people getting in their fleets carefully to avoid any kind of "gaming" that rule around.
Like in RL, errors would still occure, that's a good thing !
Another way would consist of raising by an enormous amount the standing bonuses we get from plexing, and even more while DEplexing.

3. SecStatus hits :
It's been discussed already, and i think that's a great idea : getting timers on accelaration gate activation.
But i was thinking about something more "radical", i admit it's not well thought yet :
If a neutral chose to come and hunt for a militian he should therefore "suffer" from such a choice one way or the other.
By getting a Faction standing hit ? Why not ? We are fighting for this very faction after all, right ?
Just like one would take a hit by firing upon a Sansha NPC or Blood Raider NPC ?
Limit that in complexes, otherwise it would kill fleet roams Neutral Fleets vs Faction Fleets.

4. Emphasising PvP over Farming complexes :
Raise LP earned from KILLS / Lower LP earned by plexes alone.
A lot of what is STILL annoying with farmers is not that they just flee combat with cloacks and WCSs but that they PUSH systems while farming and not taking care at all of the impacts to "true" militians.
They farm as a militia of Faction A in a system of faction B to earn the best possible LP amount, but at the same time, they raise its vulnerability to the point where "true" militians of faction A come to take it over without any "push operation", just jumping onto the occasion.
On the other side, faction B if well aware, has to farm back to stablise it, and that could be a pain to do this specially if there is no fight from the ennemy faction that would have pushed this system in purpose and for an ACTUAL conquest operation.

5. Emphasise the "faction" membership :
In order to prettify (?) FW reputation it would be great if, let's say the number of systems earned by Faction A would give bonuses in each and every Faction A systems for all sorts of activity : PvE / Industry / Mining / Taxes / .. ///
Lowered taxes, improved production time, raised missions rewards, loot drop rate raised, spawn rate raised, etc... don't know.
This way we might see some HUBs changing locations, or people engaging even for a month or 2 or 3 in FW just to get bonuses, so what ? That's good ! It's like engaging people for a War we need to win, till we have to fight again !
Bonuses in HS mean more potential engagements in FW, more activity, more fights, more turn-over AND a positive reputation as their destiny would be tied to a whole Faction area.

/discuss ?

Also, if any CSM or CCP guy reads this by any chance, is this possible (for real) that in a near future (for real near) we might see (for real) a FW-Discussion-Group juste like you did for capitals or T3 Dessies ?



there is not a single new suggestion here... so all these 'new' ideas have been considered a long time ago by CCP and left as they are now.
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
#18 - 2016-01-05 00:35:28 UTC
once more any kind of rollback kill warzone, because so many neuts...

sry for my English :-(
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#19 - 2016-01-05 01:02:59 UTC
exiik Shardani wrote:
once more any kind of rollback kill warzone, because so many neuts...


Ye. Dual-timers are much better. Instead of seeing a counter swing one way and then another. You want to chase someone out? There really is little enjoyment in a victorious 19 minute novice.
Aves Asio
#20 - 2016-01-05 01:32:53 UTC
If i could just not get aggro'd by my own militia npc's in missions that would be great.

Last time i went in a mission site after a bomber i had to kill 2 webing frigs so i could get to the one that was pointing me, the bomber was unaffected ofc.
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