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HOW TO FIX THE RORQUAL
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Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-12-21 12:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Elyia Suze Nagala
So I've heard lots of talk about how the Roqual is outdated, useless, will be soon pointless with Citidels. At first I thought this fear mongering was the work of the bored, characterless player base that out rather complain about aspects of the game they don't get, or don't get creative with. Now, after looking into the "problem" I do recognise the Roqual has faults. Below are re current bonsuses of the ship.

Traits:
Capital Industrial Ships bonuses (per skill level):
20% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
5% reduction in fuel consumption for Industrial Core
10% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness when using Industrial Core
50% bonus to Capital Remote Shield Booster range

Role bonus:
90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue
Can fit Clone Vat Bay
Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously
900% bonus to Survey Scanner range
200% bonus to Cargo Scanners range
Can fit Industrial Core

First off, no one aside from the noobish, or just plain ignorant crowd takes a Roqual to open dead space, let alone asteroid belts so why does it currently need drone bonuses or survey and cargo scan range increases?

Simply it doesn't, unless POS completely are removed after Citidels launch. So to remove these useless rolls is a start. The base line stats for this ship are quite reasonable, almost to generous. To truly make it a industry nexus though it needs more fixed position bonuses. This is my proposal to replace its current setup:

Traits:
Capital Industrial Ships bonuses (per skill level):
10% reduction in fuel consumption for Industrial Core
10% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness when using Industrial Core
15% reduction in jump fuel consumption
5% bonus to ship cargo and fleet maintenance bay volume

Role bonus:
90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue
50% bonus to Capital Remote Shield Booster amount
250% bonus to Capital Remote Shield Booster range
Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously
Can fit Clone Vat Bay
Can fit Industrial Core

Explanation:

Lowering the fuel requirements will better its efficiency, while the capital shield repairs were buff and relocated as a role bonus to also help keep its mining and defensive fleet healthy. Finally, a slight buff to cargo and fleet hanger volume to give it more general storage.



EDITS ON 12/22 6:00AM EST.
BASED UPON DISCUSSIONS

Rorqual Edits:

Lower hull production cost/requirements 20%
Permit drone bay capacity to facilitate capital mining drones and possibly fighters, limited to 2 wings.

Traits:
Capital Industrial Ships bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness when using Industrial Core
10% reduction in fuel consumption for Industrial Core
20% reduction to Industrial Core duration
20% bonus to Drone hitpoints, damage, and mining amount

Role bonus:
90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue
50% bonus to Capital Remote Shield Booster amount
250% bonus to Capital Remote Shield Booster range
Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously
Can fit Clone Vat Bay
Can fit Industrial Core


Industrial Core - Add the following benefit:

100% bonus to Capital Shield Booster amount
25% bonus to Capital Shield Booster duration
900% bonus to Survey Scanner range
Iain Cariaba
#2 - 2015-12-21 14:22:27 UTC
CCP has already stated they know the Rorqual needs fixed. How could they not when this is "How to fix the Rorqual" thread #856335420075.7?

Why don't you try waiting til CCP anounces the changes they already have planned, and post in the feedback thread when they do.
Scath Bererund
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2015-12-21 15:02:26 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
CCP has already stated they know the Rorqual needs fixed. How could they not when this is "How to fix the Rorqual" thread #856335420075.7?

Why don't you try waiting til CCP anounces the changes they already have planned, and post in the feedback thread when they do.


because it's CCP maybe?

and CCP is know for "forgetting" about things
Bobman Smith
Solitary Confinement 4 One
#4 - 2015-12-21 22:34:43 UTC
I think they need to be adjusted to provide more on grid benefits. Why are there ships that are not flown and hidden in POS's? That's broken! Give it a Siege Mode too! Make it so it tanks like a Boss. That would give it time to put out some DPS on small gangs and time to rally a defensive force from their Corp/Alliance. That seems simple right? Am I missing something? I mean, you would not put a Rorqual on grid solo, it would need need 6+ minim miners to justify its presence. That's a lot of drones... And if one of the miners gets attacked, the Rorqual does have its shield boost.

Would also like to incorporate On vs Off Grid boosting:

Pardon the rough math, just painting a picture on what this would look like. Obviously each value would have to be tweaked/adjusted accordingly to meet the proper levels CCP deems what they want in the game.

Off Grid - little boost +15% gain (20% with implants)
On Grid - Normal boost +20% (25% with implants)
On Grid with Fully Trained Squad Leader(s) +25% (30% with implants)

That way there are also on grid command ship benefits. These change would also work well with the Orca as well. Big smile

T3 immune to remote reps. They should be the most powerful solo/small gang ships but not useful for large fleets as T2 ships should be used. Remove Insurance from game. Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Buy me Ice cream please!
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2015-12-22 00:04:42 UTC
I'd be all for on grid boosts, he'll of be okay with making it a super miner with 6 strip miners and the compressor to not
Ot, but no matter how strong the tank all you need to loose one expensive rig is a wormhole with PL, CFC, or NHB on the other side. They'll commit what it takes to drop that think like its hot. Which also brings me to hot drops, yea still have them too.

The way I see it, this thing can't safely function in open space, it has to have a POS or a station on grid/in docking range to save it in an "Oh $hit" scenario. Maybe when Citidels come along these can tether to it as get enough support to save its @$$ until it can dock.

On a side note I though of an other bonus set for it:
10% reduction per level to industrial core duration.

This plus a fuel bonus would get it out of triage sooner, and get it on the move to safety. Actually this could be better that the other yet.
Bobman Smith
Solitary Confinement 4 One
#6 - 2015-12-22 00:32:19 UTC
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
I'd be all for on grid boosts, he'll of be okay with making it a super miner with 6 strip miners and the compressor to not
Ot, but no matter how strong the tank all you need to loose one expensive rig is a wormhole with PL, CFC, or NHB on the other side. They'll commit what it takes to drop that think like its hot. Which also brings me to hot drops, yea still have them too.

The way I see it, this thing can't safely function in open space, it has to have a POS or a station on grid/in docking range to save it in an "Oh $hit" scenario. Maybe when Citidels come along these can tether to it as get enough support to save its @$$ until it can dock.

On a side note I though of an other bonus set for it:
10% reduction per level to industrial core duration.

This plus a fuel bonus would get it out of triage sooner, and get it on the move to safety. Actually this could be better that the other yet.



But the same can be said about other Carriers in the game. Rarely do they undock solo, and when they do they are at a huge risk no different then the Rorqual. And those that solo use Carriers for WH or Null ratting get hunted no differently anyways. The idea, and its no different then Air Craft Carriers in the real world, they require support from a fleet. Air Craft Carriers are real world bait ships. They need presence of a support fleet with top notch intel. It's why its hard to sink a Air Craft Carrier. Ideally you would want to undock with a sizable fleet, and the bigger the fleet, the more altTABed scouts scout adjacent systems for threats. Cap Ships make most of their purpose in Player Owned Space, whether its Null or WH, and both of those have pretty good measures to counter hot drop with proper intel and locations to which you would as safely undock and perform a massive Industrial Operation.

T3 immune to remote reps. They should be the most powerful solo/small gang ships but not useful for large fleets as T2 ships should be used. Remove Insurance from game. Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Buy me Ice cream please!
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#7 - 2015-12-22 02:41:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
Bobman Smith wrote:

But the same can be said about other Carriers in the game. Rarely do they undock solo, and when they do they are at a huge risk no different then the Rorqual. And those that solo use Carriers for WH or Null ratting get hunted no differently anyways. The idea, and its no different then Air Craft Carriers in the real world, they require support from a fleet. Air Craft Carriers are real world bait ships. They need presence of a support fleet with top notch intel. It's why its hard to sink a Air Craft Carrier. Ideally you would want to undock with a sizable fleet, and the bigger the fleet, the more altTABed scouts scout adjacent systems for threats. Cap Ships make most of their purpose in Player Owned Space, whether its Null or WH, and both of those have pretty good measures to counter hot drop with proper intel and locations to which you would as safely undock and perform a massive Industrial Operation.


There are a few issues with this.

1.A Rorqual is more expensive (Double the price ?)
2.When a carrier undocks in a fleet that fleet is designed to kill stuff. Exhumers, not so much.
3.Using N+1 carriers works well, N+1 Rorquals is ******** (a couple Cap reps is not very much vs a good fleet) and every person not in a minining ship is lost income . Even if you say that they should have DPS support, why not just go without boosts and have 100% miners and make more isk for less risk.
4. Intel is not perfect. People can roll a WH into you in a seconds (I have seen a fleet go from Sig on Scanner to T3s on grid in about 20 seconds and caps on grid in 60 seconds and that included combat scanning. )

Personally i think that if you want Rorquals on grid you have to remove the industrial core/siege altogether. It has a horrible align time, maybe just make it a bit worse to compensate (make it resistance to webs so you cant easily web warp it)
Bobman Smith
Solitary Confinement 4 One
#8 - 2015-12-22 03:31:40 UTC
Andrew Indy wrote:
Bobman Smith wrote:

But the same can be said about other Carriers in the game. Rarely do they undock solo, and when they do they are at a huge risk no different then the Rorqual. And those that solo use Carriers for WH or Null ratting get hunted no differently anyways. The idea, and its no different then Air Craft Carriers in the real world, they require support from a fleet. Air Craft Carriers are real world bait ships. They need presence of a support fleet with top notch intel. It's why its hard to sink a Air Craft Carrier. Ideally you would want to undock with a sizable fleet, and the bigger the fleet, the more altTABed scouts scout adjacent systems for threats. Cap Ships make most of their purpose in Player Owned Space, whether its Null or WH, and both of those have pretty good measures to counter hot drop with proper intel and locations to which you would as safely undock and perform a massive Industrial Operation.


There are a few issues with this.

1.A Rorqual is more expansive (Double the price ?)
2.When a carrier undocks in a fleet that fleet is designed to kill stuff. Exhumers, not so much.
3.Using N+1 carriers works well, N+1 Rorquals is ******** (a couple Cap reps is not very much vs a good fleet) and every person not in a minining ship is lost income . Even if you say that they should have DPS support, why not just go without boosts and have 100% miners and make more isk for less risk.
4. Intel is not perfect. People can roll a WH into you in a seconds (I have seen a fleet go from Sig on Scanner to T3s on grid in about 20 seconds and caps on grid in 60 seconds and that included combat scanning. )

Personally i think that if you want Rorquals on grid you have to remove the industrial core/siege altogether. It has a horrible align time, maybe just make it a bit worse to compensate (make it resistance to webs so you cant easily web warp it)



Yes, your right. But whatever steps we can take to increase the use of Rorquals use on grid should be considered. That is the goal right? Will we lose some Rorquals? Yes, but if the gains are worth this risk then people will do it. Right now its not worth it and all it provides are expensive boost that needs to be inside the walls of a POS. That's not a good game mecanic.

Just some random answers, not necessarily solutions:
1.) Maybe some part of the solution is to lower the cost some?
2.) Indy not meant to kill stuff, but could still pack a punch to little fleets. Why not make a Rorqual bonus one that give Dscan Immunity for X number of KM so that the fleet is sheltered from Dscan. That would make scouting harder.
3.) And the DPS support I was referring to would be the 5x a person in fleet of drones. Each one with aprox 150DPS could do damage, again to small roaming gangs.
4.) Loses will happen, and if it takes that much effort to down a Rorqual fleet, then they earned it. A proper Rorqual Fleet is not meant for the small industry fleet that wants to operate in Low sec, the Ocra is to scale for those doing that. Love it or hate it, Rorquals will be part of large Null Corps with some WH use.

T3 immune to remote reps. They should be the most powerful solo/small gang ships but not useful for large fleets as T2 ships should be used. Remove Insurance from game. Ban Frigate Pirate Ships from Novice FW Plexs. Buy me Ice cream please!
Xavindo Sirober
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2015-12-22 04:36:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Xavindo Sirober
latest info is that they were working on it, last suggestioned thrown in by CCP was capital mining drones with the equivalant mining speed of 2 or 3 barges, from EVE Down Under.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3uiujv/actual_rorqual_fix_from_eve_down_under/

Ofcourse most of the rorqual lovers out here went nuts when hearing this.

http://evenews24.com/2015/10/30/o7-show-review-29-october-2015/

The Rorqual is like Off-Grid Links, we will conquered them, but are not ready to talk about plans. We have some old plans, some new plans, and changes may be implemented in Spring 2016 when the other Capital changes are implemented, before we change the Rorqual, it needs to meet 3 requirements

It needs to do powerful things on the field
Effectively support other miners
Defensive abilities that can be good enough to survive

The Rorqual needs love, and has been neglected for a while, but we are working on changes.


Best bet so far is remove industrial core and change traits/roles accordingly. because no sane person is going to set a rorqual in a belt for 5 minutes.



Best bet is to wait, i have made among with a few dozen others numerous posts about it, i suggest looking at a few pages or use the search button with rorqual in it :)

Edited for some links for you Cool
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#10 - 2015-12-22 04:43:26 UTC
Xavindo Sirober wrote:
latest info is that they were working on it, last suggestioned thrown in by CCP was capital mining drones with the equivalant mining speed of 2 or 3 barges, from EVE Down Under.


[Rorqual, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Drone Navigation Computer II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Capital Shield Booster I

Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Improved Cloaking Device II

Capital Higgs Anchor I
Capital Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capital Capacitor Control Circuit I

And profit while you stay aligned at 15ms

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-12-22 10:24:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Elyia Suze Nagala
Xavindo Sirober wrote:

Best bet so far is remove industrial core and change traits/roles accordingly. because no sane person is going to set a rorqual in a belt for 5 minutes.


That what I was aiming at, if the industrial core could have a skill based time and fuel reduction to where you could get it down to 30 seconds between cycles then youd have a decent chance to unseige and jump out of system before anyone can land on top of you to tackle.

With Citidels maybe all you would have to do is unlock and siege in place while remaining tethered to the station. Trouble shows up and you unseige and dock up.

As far as capital mining drones go, it's an interesting idea but again why risk that expensive of a ship to mine in a belt? I wouldn't. Orcas are the best on grid support ship. Leave that role to them, let them be trumped by Rorquals, but for reasons beyond better boosts. Rorquals should be the best boosters, but they need something better to make them stand out, or a total make over to get pilots to actually bring them into a belt.

Bigger tank isn't the key to that. Big hunting corps will direct whatever amount of force needed to kill a target. Titans aren't even safe when singled out. PL wants a fight to escalate, they thrive on it.

Lowering the price would have to be a huge factor to get pilot to bring them into belts. One big juicy target or 6/7 seven little barges that can't all be tackled at once. One other factor would be allowing Rorqual to launch fighters... I'll let that set in, I'm sure someone choked. Think about it though, the ship is clearly big enough. That alone may make their survivability go up and give more desire to place them in the field. It would go more in hand with a more drone focused theme too.

Summation:
1. Reduce siege time/fuel cost per cycle.
2. Reduce hull cost
3. Add bigger drone focus
4. Better tank, heavier local rep when core is online.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-12-22 11:00:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Elyia Suze Nagala
Rorqual Edits:

Lower hull production cost/requirements 20%
Permit drone bay capacity to facilitate capital mining drones and possibly fighters, limited to 2 wings.

Traits:
Capital Industrial Ships bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness when using Industrial Core
10% reduction in fuel consumption for Industrial Core
20% reduction to Industrial Core duration
20% bonus to Drone hitpoints, damage, and mining amount

Role bonus:
90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue
50% bonus to Capital Remote Shield Booster amount
250% bonus to Capital Remote Shield Booster range
Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously
Can fit Clone Vat Bay
Can fit Industrial Core


Industrial Core - Add the following benefit:

100% bonus to Capital Shield Booster amount
25% bonus to Capital Shield Booster duration
900% bonus to Survey Scanner range
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-12-22 17:22:22 UTC
Feawen likes this.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#14 - 2015-12-23 07:11:58 UTC
Make it so you can throw it around with a command destroyer.

A signature :o
Xavindo Sirober
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2015-12-23 16:29:12 UTC
The person(s) hosting the EDU Facebook page have been very helpful and uploaded this for me.

https://youtu.be/khMOLkPBG9Y

Officially the latest info.

Cant wait on the feedback page of this oneSmile