These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4981 - 2015-12-23 09:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:

If it's OK to be safe, it's ok to be safe.


Not if you can activate any modules while doing so. Especially not if you're generating income or assets into the game world.

The only reason cloaks are any kind of exception at all is because of how much they cripple the user, both in terms of active gameplay choices and in terms of raw stats on cov ops capable ship classes.

Come on, this isn't that hard.


So you support making pods and shuttles immune to being hunted as well? They can't even fit modules at all. What about ships like freighters with no high slots? They should be immune too, right?

I mean, if that's your standard for being safe, let's apply it everywhere.

Additional Safety is one thing. immunity is something else.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4982 - 2015-12-23 09:40:27 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:

So you support making pods and shuttles immune to being hunted as well?


Of course not, they don't have cov ops cloaks.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4983 - 2015-12-23 09:42:10 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I see the gymnastics continue, yet the entirety of lowsec manage with neuts EVERYWHERE. Some of them docked, actually LITERALLY invincible.

Maybe they are just made of sterner stuff.

Or is that next? "CCPLEASE LET ME UNDOCK PPL"

?


Docked is fine. Docked is intended to be safe. In space isn't.

The call to be allowed to undock people has been made many times by those on your side of the argument. Some people really don't understand the difference between modules and structures.

Low Secs conditions aren't the same, so the problem isn't as visible. Even so, if it's outside a structure and immune to being hunted, it's too safe.


Of course they are the same. Explain why they are not. Note the bubbles and bombs have no relevance here.

You've a cheek saying people don't understand between structures and modules when you're the one crusading that "exerting influence" whilst invulnerable is not on, then people point out POS and stations and suddenly "they don't count, because "reasons I made up". Well chief, cloaks don't count either, because my made up bullshit is as valid as the next persons.

A docked player has exactly the same level of perceived "influence" on an individual of that system as someone in space cloaked.


So again, why does lowsec not collapse inwards?

Indeed, people even mine in highsec with code in system, docked and invulnerable, never knowing when they go active. The highsec miner has bigger stones than the ratter in nullsec. Discuss.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4984 - 2015-12-23 09:43:29 UTC
So it's not just the lack of offensive options?

Pods and shuttles are inferior in every way to a cov ops ship. They also cannot activate any modules, as they have none.

You seem to be justifying the 100% safety of the module based on these criteria. Now you are using the module itself as a criteria despite the justification being met. You should be able to see the problem there...
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4985 - 2015-12-23 09:45:38 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I see the gymnastics continue, yet the entirety of lowsec manage with neuts EVERYWHERE. Some of them docked, actually LITERALLY invincible.

Maybe they are just made of sterner stuff.

Or is that next? "CCPLEASE LET ME UNDOCK PPL"

?


Docked is fine. Docked is intended to be safe. In space isn't.

The call to be allowed to undock people has been made many times by those on your side of the argument. Some people really don't understand the difference between modules and structures.

Low Secs conditions aren't the same, so the problem isn't as visible. Even so, if it's outside a structure and immune to being hunted, it's too safe.


Of course they are the same. Explain why they are not. Note the bubbles and bombs have no relevance here.

You've a cheek saying people don't understand between structures and modules when you're the one crusading that "exerting influence" whilst invulnerable is not on, then people point out POS and stations and suddenly "they don't count, because "reasons I made up". Well chief, cloaks don't count either, because my made up bullshit is as valid as the next persons.

A docked player has exactly the same level of perceived "influence" on an individual of that system as someone in space cloaked.


So again, why does lowsec not collapse inwards?

Indeed, people even mine in highsec with code in system, docked and invulnerable, never knowing when they go active. The highsec miner has bigger stones than the ratter in nullsec. Discuss.

People accuse me of stacking the deck.

At a minimum, you can check a station and see the neut is docked, and if you wish to secure yourself you can post a watch on the station to see if/when he becomes active---even having an opportunity to catch him at that time. That's orders of magnitude less safe than being cloaked.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4986 - 2015-12-23 09:55:42 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I see the gymnastics continue, yet the entirety of lowsec manage with neuts EVERYWHERE. Some of them docked, actually LITERALLY invincible.

Maybe they are just made of sterner stuff.

Or is that next? "CCPLEASE LET ME UNDOCK PPL"

?


Docked is fine. Docked is intended to be safe. In space isn't.

The call to be allowed to undock people has been made many times by those on your side of the argument. Some people really don't understand the difference between modules and structures.

Low Secs conditions aren't the same, so the problem isn't as visible. Even so, if it's outside a structure and immune to being hunted, it's too safe.


Of course they are the same. Explain why they are not. Note the bubbles and bombs have no relevance here.

You've a cheek saying people don't understand between structures and modules when you're the one crusading that "exerting influence" whilst invulnerable is not on, then people point out POS and stations and suddenly "they don't count, because "reasons I made up". Well chief, cloaks don't count either, because my made up bullshit is as valid as the next persons.

A docked player has exactly the same level of perceived "influence" on an individual of that system as someone in space cloaked.


So again, why does lowsec not collapse inwards?

Indeed, people even mine in highsec with code in system, docked and invulnerable, never knowing when they go active. The highsec miner has bigger stones than the ratter in nullsec. Discuss.

People accuse me of stacking the deck.

At a minimum, you can check a station and see the neut is docked, and if you wish to secure yourself you can post a watch on the station to see if/when he becomes active---even having an opportunity to catch him at that time. That's orders of magnitude less safe than being cloaked.



Oh so you hold lowseccers to higher standards than nullbears? Despite the obvious skew in security/risk/reward? Good to know.

See, you steadfastly refuse to fleet/watch the gate in null but you're prepared to say lowseccers must do the same to watch the station?

Hypocrite much?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4987 - 2015-12-23 09:58:15 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I see the gymnastics continue, yet the entirety of lowsec manage with neuts EVERYWHERE. Some of them docked, actually LITERALLY invincible.

Maybe they are just made of sterner stuff.

Or is that next? "CCPLEASE LET ME UNDOCK PPL"

?


Docked is fine. Docked is intended to be safe. In space isn't.

The call to be allowed to undock people has been made many times by those on your side of the argument. Some people really don't understand the difference between modules and structures.

Low Secs conditions aren't the same, so the problem isn't as visible. Even so, if it's outside a structure and immune to being hunted, it's too safe.


Of course they are the same. Explain why they are not. Note the bubbles and bombs have no relevance here.

You've a cheek saying people don't understand between structures and modules when you're the one crusading that "exerting influence" whilst invulnerable is not on, then people point out POS and stations and suddenly "they don't count, because "reasons I made up". Well chief, cloaks don't count either, because my made up bullshit is as valid as the next persons.

A docked player has exactly the same level of perceived "influence" on an individual of that system as someone in space cloaked.


So again, why does lowsec not collapse inwards?

Indeed, people even mine in highsec with code in system, docked and invulnerable, never knowing when they go active. The highsec miner has bigger stones than the ratter in nullsec. Discuss.

People accuse me of stacking the deck.

At a minimum, you can check a station and see the neut is docked, and if you wish to secure yourself you can post a watch on the station to see if/when he becomes active---even having an opportunity to catch him at that time. That's orders of magnitude less safe than being cloaked.



Oh so you hold lowseccers to higher standards than nullbears? Despite the obvious skew in security/risk/reward? Good to know.

See, you steadfastly refuse to fleet/watch the gate in null but you're prepared to say lowseccers must do the same to watch the station?

Hypocrite much?


No, I say it's an option. One that is unavailable against a cloaked ship. The issue is the inability to hunt cloaked ships, not the inability to stop them from interfering with ratters/miners.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4988 - 2015-12-23 10:17:55 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The issue is the inability to hunt cloaked ships


That's not an issue.

It's them working as intended. They are supposed to give a wary and prepared player the ability to make attacks of opportunity as he sees fit.

Besides, you can hunt them, just not easily. To suggest that they are completely safe is a lie.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4989 - 2015-12-23 10:34:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The issue is the inability to hunt cloaked ships


That's not an issue.

It's them working as intended. They are supposed to give a wary and prepared player the ability to make attacks of opportunity as he sees fit.

Besides, you can hunt them, just not easily. To suggest that they are completely safe is a lie.



Still waiting on that method then. Should be the easiest thing in the world to hunt a ship with an afk pilot. Do tell us your elite plan to hunt a ship afk under a cloak that's not on grid with you.

If things are as you claim, that should pose you no challenge at all.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4990 - 2015-12-23 11:23:39 UTC
Too many quotes.

It is perfectly available in null, you just won't because 'isk/hour'. Except it's OK in low because it suits you. Uh-huh, ok.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4991 - 2015-12-23 13:24:51 UTC
Does not matter. The thread topic is the ultra risk aversion inherent to afk cloaky camping.

Which will end and transform to mere extreme risk aversion.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4992 - 2015-12-23 13:34:39 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
The thread topic is the ultra risk aversion inherent to afk cloaky camping.


Actually, it's the ultra risk aversion that makes people complain about cloaking devices at all.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4993 - 2015-12-23 15:01:22 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:


Too many quotes.

It is perfectly available in null, you just won't because 'isk/hour'. Except it's OK in low because it suits you. Uh-huh, ok.


If you are posting from a phone, I feel your pain. The struggle is real. Let me help you out, since you apparently misread what I wrote:


Mike Voidstar wrote:


No, I say it's an option. One that is unavailable against a cloaked ship. The issue is the inability to hunt cloaked ships, not the inability to stop them from interfering with ratters/miners.


Unavailable against a cloaked ship. Nothing was said about Null. It was a statement about the strength of cloaks.

In low, nothing stops anyone from entering a station, verifying the pilot's location, and setting up a watch if such is deemed necessary.

If that pilot is in that station, he is truly harmless. He isn't 15k away, acting as a warp in for a log off trap. He's not about to light a cyno. He's not providing specific intel.

He is at a known location, with a specific undock, and if I don't like him I can watch and attempt to kill him when he leaves that station.

If he is in a station, he is not in space. He is supposed to be safe. That's how EVE works.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4994 - 2015-12-23 16:53:38 UTC
Karous
Nope. Otherwise suggested fixes would be a lot more rigid than simply suggesting a cloaky pilot be like at his computer to retain invulnerability. Nothing is stopping cloaky pilots from you know, actually flying their spaceships.

The risk does not change if cloaky pilots are able to meet that onerous condition. All it does is add content as PvE pilots go into hunting mode to verify that cloaky pilots are ATK.

Which of course amounts to an insurmountable risk to the perversely extreme risk adverse.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4995 - 2015-12-23 17:21:15 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaks are too safe so long as they allow for 100% safety outside of a dock. The camper isn't 'not playing the game'. He is projecting threat and forcing defensive response from others in the system. Even if you accept the camper is 'not playing the game' as an excuse for that level of safety, you would logically support pods and shuttles also being safe, since they can't do anything either.

Regardless... If you are not inside a structure, you need to be at some form of risk. Cloaks do not pass that standard.


It is not blanket 100% safe though, so it's fine. Because they are only extremely safe while at a safe spot and not engaging anyone.

Structure shmucture....who cares. You keep saying structures were designed to make people safe. Why not cloaks? They can, and have been, caught while moving. The level of safety they provide is not 100%. But at a safe spot they are very safe...and they can do precisely nothing to you other than scare you...and only if you let it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4996 - 2015-12-23 17:29:34 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So it's not just the lack of offensive options?

Pods and shuttles are inferior in every way to a cov ops ship. They also cannot activate any modules, as they have none.

You seem to be justifying the 100% safety of the module based on these criteria. Now you are using the module itself as a criteria despite the justification being met. You should be able to see the problem there...


Nope.

If I am i n a pod 99.9% of the time I am going to get a ship. Usually to get back in the fight. That remaining 0.01% of the time, I'm deep in a pack of bubbles and either waiting to be podded while my self-destruct timer is counting down. Or I have just undocked and asked a blue to "pod express" me to wherever my clone is.

If I am in a shuttle I am in HS moving between Point A and Point B to do Something™.

Being able to shoot me in those situations is reasonable. Although why people shoot me in a pod when heading home 20 jumps is beyond me...let me waste the time manually flying. P

Nice reach on this one, but the official says, "No points!" P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4997 - 2015-12-23 17:31:15 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I see the gymnastics continue, yet the entirety of lowsec manage with neuts EVERYWHERE. Some of them docked, actually LITERALLY invincible.

Maybe they are just made of sterner stuff.

Or is that next? "CCPLEASE LET ME UNDOCK PPL"

?


Docked is fine. Docked is intended to be safe. In space isn't.

The call to be allowed to undock people has been made many times by those on your side of the argument. Some people really don't understand the difference between modules and structures.

Low Secs conditions aren't the same, so the problem isn't as visible. Even so, if it's outside a structure and immune to being hunted, it's too safe.


Of course they are the same. Explain why they are not. Note the bubbles and bombs have no relevance here.

You've a cheek saying people don't understand between structures and modules when you're the one crusading that "exerting influence" whilst invulnerable is not on, then people point out POS and stations and suddenly "they don't count, because "reasons I made up". Well chief, cloaks don't count either, because my made up bullshit is as valid as the next persons.

A docked player has exactly the same level of perceived "influence" on an individual of that system as someone in space cloaked.


So again, why does lowsec not collapse inwards?

Indeed, people even mine in highsec with code in system, docked and invulnerable, never knowing when they go active. The highsec miner has bigger stones than the ratter in nullsec. Discuss.

People accuse me of stacking the deck.

At a minimum, you can check a station and see the neut is docked, and if you wish to secure yourself you can post a watch on the station to see if/when he becomes active---even having an opportunity to catch him at that time. That's orders of magnitude less safe than being cloaked.


Not in Sov null. Not unless you have docking rights.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4998 - 2015-12-23 17:49:04 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
I see the gymnastics continue, yet the entirety of lowsec manage with neuts EVERYWHERE. Some of them docked, actually LITERALLY invincible.

Maybe they are just made of sterner stuff.

Or is that next? "CCPLEASE LET ME UNDOCK PPL"

?


Docked is fine. Docked is intended to be safe. In space isn't.

The call to be allowed to undock people has been made many times by those on your side of the argument. Some people really don't understand the difference between modules and structures.

Low Secs conditions aren't the same, so the problem isn't as visible. Even so, if it's outside a structure and immune to being hunted, it's too safe.


Of course they are the same. Explain why they are not. Note the bubbles and bombs have no relevance here.

You've a cheek saying people don't understand between structures and modules when you're the one crusading that "exerting influence" whilst invulnerable is not on, then people point out POS and stations and suddenly "they don't count, because "reasons I made up". Well chief, cloaks don't count either, because my made up bullshit is as valid as the next persons.

A docked player has exactly the same level of perceived "influence" on an individual of that system as someone in space cloaked.


So again, why does lowsec not collapse inwards?

Indeed, people even mine in highsec with code in system, docked and invulnerable, never knowing when they go active. The highsec miner has bigger stones than the ratter in nullsec. Discuss.

People accuse me of stacking the deck.

At a minimum, you can check a station and see the neut is docked, and if you wish to secure yourself you can post a watch on the station to see if/when he becomes active---even having an opportunity to catch him at that time. That's orders of magnitude less safe than being cloaked.


Not in Sov null. Not unless you have docking rights.

The question was referencing low sec, and asked what the difference is between docked and cloaked.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4999 - 2015-12-23 17:51:40 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So it's not just the lack of offensive options?

Pods and shuttles are inferior in every way to a cov ops ship. They also cannot activate any modules, as they have none.

You seem to be justifying the 100% safety of the module based on these criteria. Now you are using the module itself as a criteria despite the justification being met. You should be able to see the problem there...


Nope.

If I am i n a pod 99.9% of the time I am going to get a ship. Usually to get back in the fight. That remaining 0.01% of the time, I'm deep in a pack of bubbles and either waiting to be podded while my self-destruct timer is counting down. Or I have just undocked and asked a blue to "pod express" me to wherever my clone is.

If I am in a shuttle I am in HS moving between Point A and Point B to do Something™.

Being able to shoot me in those situations is reasonable. Although why people shoot me in a pod when heading home 20 jumps is beyond me...let me waste the time manually flying. P

Nice reach on this one, but the official says, "No points!" P

Being able to shoot you at anytime while outside of a structure is reasonable.

While cloaked at a safe you are doing something, even if it's just being a threatening presence that demands a defensive response.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5000 - 2015-12-23 17:55:02 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Cloaks are too safe so long as they allow for 100% safety outside of a dock. The camper isn't 'not playing the game'. He is projecting threat and forcing defensive response from others in the system. Even if you accept the camper is 'not playing the game' as an excuse for that level of safety, you would logically support pods and shuttles also being safe, since they can't do anything either.

Regardless... If you are not inside a structure, you need to be at some form of risk. Cloaks do not pass that standard.


It is not blanket 100% safe though, so it's fine. Because they are only extremely safe while at a safe spot and not engaging anyone.

Structure shmucture....who cares. You keep saying structures were designed to make people safe. Why not cloaks? They can, and have been, caught while moving. The level of safety they provide is not 100%. But at a safe spot they are very safe...and they can do precisely nothing to you other than scare you...and only if you let it.

Because cloaks aren't structures. They are modules on a ship, and you consent to PvP when you undock.

At a safe spot they are not just very safe. They are utterly immune. That is too much. You want to complain that people run to a dock after you jump in system, but think it's ok that someone be so overwhelmingly safe they need not even bother trying to run, ever.

It's not about preventing interference, it's about everyone being at risk outside of a structure.