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Increase SP acquisition for new accounts
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#141 - 2015-12-22 22:53:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
The problem is that new players arrogantly refuse to listen and instead choose to assume things based on completely unrelated games.
That would be entitlement, which is something new players are actually new enough to be cured of. The arrogance is from people like you (veterans). And it is so ingrained that there is no fixing it. According to you and other vets posting, you are right and everyone else from the newest player to the company that created and maintained this game for a decade is wrong.

Amusing to read for a while, but it gets tired after a while hearing the same few people spouting the same few platitudes over and over.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#142 - 2015-12-22 23:00:25 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
According to you and other vets posting, you are right and everyone else from the newest player to the company that created and maintained this game for a decade is wrong.

It's not really “according to me” — it's just how history has played out. There have certainly been a fair amount of new players who have gotten it right from the start, but far more have had to learn over time, and more still have never been able to overcome their preconceptions and never got their head around it.

How the skill system works and what it allows you to do isn't really a matter for debate. The only question is whether you grasp it or not.

Quote:
Amusing to read for a while, but it gets tired after a while hearing the same few people spouting the same few platitudes over and over.
Platitudes such as “new players need more SP faster”, and “you can't do X until Y”, I presume. Yes, they do get tiring fairly quickly, especially when they're so very obviously not true.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#143 - 2015-12-22 23:01:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
You're too late. What you're asking for has already happened.
Also, the gap you're worried about doesn't actually exist.


I have missed you.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#144 - 2015-12-22 23:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Sure you can do whatever at low SP but you are going to lose or be dead weight.

Nope.

Where have you looked?

Here's some videos to watch, by activity:

Solo PVP:
17 day old trial account rifter pvp
20 day old Amarr character executioner pvp
New player low SP nullsec Kestrel pvp

Fleet PVP:
Pandemic Horde vs Karmafleet (youngest character in that fight was 3 days old at the time)

Mission Running
New Player level 1 mission runner

Mining
Mining character day 1 (whole series following each day of a new player)
New Player Guide Venture Mining
New Player Mining Tutorial

Exploration
Heron fit New Players Exploration
Imicus fit New Player Exploration
New Player exploration fit for lowsec and wormholes

That's just with a quick look.

About the only thing I can think of being difficult for a new player to get heavily involved in is Incursions. All other content is open to any player that figures it out.

Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
SP is an artificial cap and unless you actually provide evidence to back up your assertions you are wasting your breath speaking to new players.

You keep asserting this, but also provide no evidence to support your statement.

There's plenty of evidence to counter it though.
Memphis Baas
#145 - 2015-12-22 23:22:14 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
According to you and other vets posting, you are right and everyone else from the newest player to the company that created and maintained this game for a decade is wrong.

Amusing to read for a while, but it gets tired after a while hearing the same few people spouting the same few platitudes over and over.


I think I'm just arguing against Tristan, so I'm not sure where you got "everyone else and CCP for a decade."

And if the thread is tired, stop reading (and stop posting). You usually don't post anything useful (i.e. you're just a troll), and it's not like we're going to alter our posts and rehashed arguments to make it more interesting for you.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#146 - 2015-12-22 23:37:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
According to you and other vets posting, you are right and everyone else from the newest player to the company that created and maintained this game for a decade is wrong.

It's not really “according to me” — it's just how history has played out. There have certainly been a fair amount of new players who have gotten it right from the start, but far more have had to learn over time, and more still have never been able to overcome their preconceptions and never got their head around it.

How the skill system works and what it allows you to do isn't really a matter for debate. The only question is whether you grasp it or not.

Quote:
Amusing to read for a while, but it gets tired after a while hearing the same few people spouting the same few platitudes over and over.
Platitudes such as “new players need more SP faster”, and “you can't do X until Y”, I presume. Yes, they do get tiring fairly quickly, especially when they're so very obviously not true.
Not a bad deflection, but you've done better.

Nonetheless, a valid tool in this forum and much better than the other righteous posters that simply report me when I point out the hypocrisy in their posts.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2015-12-22 23:38:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
The problem is that new players arrogantly refuse to listen and instead choose to assume things based on completely unrelated games. They then become rather agitated and belligerent when their baseless assumptions are challenged. So again, it's a player problem, not anything that is even remotely connected to SP.

Well, we agree that some people in that particular communication process tend to be arrogant and belligerent, and quite incapable of dealing with any challenge to their ingrained views. We just disagree on where that sort of behaviour is more commonly found. (Though I should restrict this comment to what I see on these forums. That need not be representative of people in game, and I do not actually know whether it is.)

Tippia wrote:
It remains the case that this person gets to do exactly what they want to do: play football.

Nope, sorry, but this happens to be my analogy and that is not what I originally said the person wanted. You will have to come up with your own analogy.

Tippia wrote:
No matter how much you wish it to be the case, there are no “newbie roles” that sit in sharp contrast to some imagined “vet roles”.

Are you in the agitprop department of Brave Newbies, or something?

Tippia wrote:
In some other game, you may be a “mage” (usually the role of blocker/disabler). In EVE, you may also be a “mage”: you undock in an ewar frigate. That is your role for the outing. On the next outing, you may instead be a “cleric” by flying a logistics frigate instead. Or you may be a “ranger” by flying a recon ship. Or you may be a “paladin” by flying a fleet booster. The difference here isn't one of theme, but one of how standard roles are implemented through mechanics. In most games, they are distinct and exclusive classes; in EVE, they are ships.

Of course, you just have at length spelled out exactly what I was saying! Namely that the technology narrative does not lend itself to a "lock in" to certain roles, as the fantasy "class" does. One isn't a "mage", one merely flies an ewar ship now, but maybe something else later. That's precisely what I pointed out.

I'm delighted that you agree with my analysis. Now you just need to agree with my - rather trivial - conclusion: since in fact EVE's structure is not like that of other MMOs, one cannot fairly compare with training times in other MMOs, and there is no a priori reason why training has to be locked down in a similar manner to other MMOs. As stated, the most natural narrative-compliant way of handling skill would be to have skills that can be uploaded "Matrix-like" traded freely as commodities on the market. (Obviously, one would have to think of a way such skills would be produced that involved lower or higher production costs.)
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#148 - 2015-12-22 23:43:52 UTC
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Judging by the diverse opinions I've seen reading this thread the matter of newbies SP is far from concise and from my perspetive many of the Vets have a very conservative perspective on new player gain. Some good points were made about alt accounts abusing a mechanic that helps bring others more quickly in-line with older accounts but overall I'm unconvinced. While I agree that the real experience is learning the game I still view SP as a cap which limits a players ability to branch out to have a broad base. I think a good compromise would be higher starting skills or perhaps packages which allow account purchase that offer up to level 4 in a field.


No, we are just making distinctions you are apparently not grasping.

Veterans often have multiple accounts, much more so than new players. Many of us have free slots (you can have 3 characters/account max). So we can efficiently train alts using the increased training rate, much more so than a new player. Thus, we'll gain an advantage over the new players. Giving veteran players an advantage over new players is probably not a good way to help new players.

Soon™ you will be able to buy SP in game and inject them into your character. However, I still have similar reservations about this method as well. Still, it could work out for the best with mostly new players taking part in the market. Currently, IIRC, many new players take advantage of the character bazaar with little apparent downside. But this new proposed method has steeply increasing costs unlike an increased training rate.

Another thing that has been pointed out is Malcanis' law which states,

Quote:
"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."


The implication of this is to stop trying to make things better for any subgroup of players and just try to make the game better and the new players, solo PvP guys, miners, etc. will be fine.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Memphis Baas
#149 - 2015-12-22 23:52:03 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
I point out the hypocrisy


So the point is that you're the hyppo (hypocrisy pointer-outer)! Big smile
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#150 - 2015-12-22 23:59:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tristan Agion wrote:
Nope, sorry, but this happens to be my analogy and that is not what I originally said the person wanted.
Your analogy was incorrect. I fixed it. So no, it is exactly what was originally said before you started moving the goalposts and being dishonest about the options involved for the player in question. The fact remains: new players can take part in everything the game has to offer from day 1. They are not relegated to the sidelines. They are not forced into some demeaning servant role. They are not locked out of any content.

Your hyperbolic example of “if I can't use this specific tool, it is exactly the same as my not being able to play at all” doesn't change this fact. It only proves you have to rely on fallacies to even begin to have (the illusion of) a point to offer.

Quote:
Are you in the agitprop department of Brave Newbies, or something?
No. Just knowledgeable about the game, its contents, and the options available to new players.

Quote:
Of course, you just have at length spelled out exactly what I was saying!
So you agree, then: the comparison works perfectly, and the narrative is — as always — irrelevant to what we're discussing: the time it takes to take on a multitude of roles. You are a blocker in both instances: either because you fly a recon ship or because you log in with a mage. It's funny that you now accept this, since you tried to imply that the comparison didn't work.

Quote:
since in fact EVE's structure is not like that of other MMOs, one cannot fairly compare with training times in other MMOs, and there is no a priori reason why training has to be locked down in a similar manner to other MMOs.
That's exactly why it isn't locked down in any way, and certainly not in a manner that is in any way similar to other MMOs. Even so, comparing the training times is trivially done since the exact same roles with the exact same mechanical purposes exist in both places. The only “unfair” thing about it is how ridiculously quickly the EVE skill system lets you get into multiple roles — the vast majority of them are available from day 1.

Quote:
As stated, the most natural narrative-compliant way of handling skill would be to have skills that can be uploaded "Matrix-like" traded freely as commodities on the market.
You mean it should work exactly like it does right now? So what are you complaining about then?
Miles Winter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2015-12-23 00:03:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Miles Winter
Tippia wrote:
Also, the gap you're worried about doesn't actually exist.

Paul Pohl wrote:
If there is a problem, it is equating skill points to actual player skill.... speeding up the first does not speed up the latter


A serious mechanical advantage absolutely exists until a new player has several million skillpoints - I'd argue around 6-12 months of gametime and at least 3 months, assuming they pick the right skills, which they won't.

Yes, anyone can easily and quickly learn the basics of PvP, and with a month or two in PvP oriented corps they could even get pretty good at it, but that doesn't overcome the intrinsic advantage of a vet being able to fit a damage control II while noobs are stuck with meta variants or basic damage control I's.

The dps, targeting range, optimal+falloff, and ehp difference between a 3 month old player and a veteran player could be nearly double - or more - just based on what their skills let them fit on their ships. It's enough that even in situations where Frigate A SHOULD have a clear advantage against Frigate B, the difference coming from those fittings, and thus ship capability, allows B to defeat A regardless.

Player skill is absolutely important - moreso than skillpoints, but to say skillpoints don't matter at all - that's hogwash.
Vivias Xelnoa
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2015-12-23 00:05:39 UTC
Made another post looking for a corp and pretty much everyone who has commented thus far as told me that you are simply too weak to do anything below 2 mil SP if you want to go to nul space even with an established group. Seems like the Eve community is split on this as some claim that SP doesn't matter while another group stipulates the exact opposite. While I admit an acceleration for new players might be abused by older players that doesn't mean CCP cannot invest a way to prevent the worst of it. CCP seems smart enough to find a way to avoid the few bad apples which prevent a new audience from joining Eve as by the looks of it the population has been declining in the last few months. Surely you realize that in order for your game to thrive and grow it needs to change?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#153 - 2015-12-23 00:24:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Miles Winter wrote:
Yes, anyone can easily and quickly learn the basics of PvP, and with a month or two in PvP oriented corps they could even get pretty good at it, but that doesn't overcome the intrinsic advantage of a vet being able to fit a damage control II while noobs are stuck with meta variants or basic damage control I's.

That's true in terms of paper stats, but that's pretty much the point: paper stats are not the reality and they can trivially be subverted in roughly a bajillion different ways — that's where the whole “learn the basics of PvP” comes in. Learning what to attack with what (and when) and how to overcome the increasingly marginal improvements that the exponentially longer training times provide.

Quote:
The dps, targeting range, optimal+falloff, and ehp difference between a 3 month old player and a veteran player could be nearly double - or more - just based on what their skills let them fit on their ships.
You'd be surprised. For a regular combat ship, the difference is often less than a 50% advantage (and that's assuming the veteran has maxed everything out, which is a) far from guaranteed, and b) not a good use of his training time). But more than that, all that assumes that the new player is being stupid: that he is trying to take on the veteran in a 1:1 matched head-on competition.

It takes a year and a half to completely (and, granted, stupidly) max out a T1 cruiser. It takes 70 days to do an “all IV” version of the same ship and end up with ~60% the DPS and 80% the tank, and even that assumes that the 70 days aren't spent all that intelligently.

Quote:
It's enough that even in situations where Frigate A SHOULD have a clear advantage against Frigate B, the difference coming from those fittings, and thus ship capability, allows B to defeat A regardless.
The assumption here is that frigate A is the same as frigate B, because if not, there is nothing to suggest that such an advantage will exist or that B will have such an easy victory.

Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
While I admit an acceleration for new players might be abused by older players that doesn't mean CCP cannot invest a way to prevent the worst of it.
That's pretty much exactly what it means. Anything that would benefit a new player will inherently benefit older players more. You are still stuck at this idea that acceleration is somehow needed for new players, but you have yet to offer anything to back this up, much less to link it to some hypothetical wider audience.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#154 - 2015-12-23 00:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Made another post looking for a corp and pretty much everyone who has commented thus far as told me that you are simply too weak to do anything below 2 mil SP if you want to go to nul space even with an established group. Seems like the Eve community is split on this as some claim that SP doesn't matter while another group stipulates the exact opposite. While I admit an acceleration for new players might be abused by older players that doesn't mean CCP cannot invest a way to prevent the worst of it. CCP seems smart enough to find a way to avoid the few bad apples which prevent a new audience from joining Eve as by the looks of it the population has been declining in the last few months. Surely you realize that in order for your game to thrive and grow it needs to change?

There are Corps out there that don't want to train new players, which is perfectly fine for them.

There are a lot more that will and some great nullsec Corps that focus on that very thing.

Join Pandemic Horde and see how well organised they are and supportive of new players. You'll be in nullsec in no time, involved in pvp or PvE with experienced support around to help you and plenty of other new players to learn alongside.

As to the game declining, there's a whole other long thread with competing opinions as to why. Recent change of the game might also be the cause of the decline. Who knows? The only thing certain is that the game has always been changing since it began and there is no simple solution of "change the game and numbers will increase".
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#155 - 2015-12-23 00:29:09 UTC
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Made another post looking for a corp and pretty much everyone who has commented thus far as told me that you are simply too weak to do anything below 2 mil SP if you want to go to nul space even with an established group. Seems like the Eve community is split on this as some claim that SP doesn't matter while another group stipulates the exact opposite. While I admit an acceleration for new players might be abused by older players that doesn't mean CCP cannot invest a way to prevent the worst of it. CCP seems smart enough to find a way to avoid the few bad apples which prevent a new audience from joining Eve as by the looks of it the population has been declining in the last few months. Surely you realize that in order for your game to thrive and grow it needs to change?



Did you somehow miss Karmafleet and Pandemic Horde?

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Vivias Xelnoa
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2015-12-23 00:34:14 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Made another post looking for a corp and pretty much everyone who has commented thus far as told me that you are simply too weak to do anything below 2 mil SP if you want to go to nul space even with an established group. Seems like the Eve community is split on this as some claim that SP doesn't matter while another group stipulates the exact opposite. While I admit an acceleration for new players might be abused by older players that doesn't mean CCP cannot invest a way to prevent the worst of it. CCP seems smart enough to find a way to avoid the few bad apples which prevent a new audience from joining Eve as by the looks of it the population has been declining in the last few months. Surely you realize that in order for your game to thrive and grow it needs to change?

There are Corps out there that don't want to train new players, which is perfectly fine for them.

There are a lot more that will and some great nullsec Corps that focus on that very thing.

Join Pandemic Horde and see how well organised they are and supportive of new players. You'll be in nullsec in no time, involved in pvp or PvE with experienced support around to help you and plenty of other new players to learn alongside.

As to the game declining, there's a whole other long thread with competing opinions as to why. Recent change of the game might also be the cause of the decline. Who knows? The only thing certain is that the game has always been changing since it began and there is no simple solution of "change the game and numbers will increase".


Appreciate your comments. I've been enjoying Eve and plan to try to stick it out at least 6 months to see where I can go with it. By then SC might be further along in Alpha as they seem to making pretty solid progress recently.
Vivias Xelnoa
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#157 - 2015-12-23 00:35:01 UTC
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Made another post looking for a corp and pretty much everyone who has commented thus far as told me that you are simply too weak to do anything below 2 mil SP if you want to go to nul space even with an established group. Seems like the Eve community is split on this as some claim that SP doesn't matter while another group stipulates the exact opposite. While I admit an acceleration for new players might be abused by older players that doesn't mean CCP cannot invest a way to prevent the worst of it. CCP seems smart enough to find a way to avoid the few bad apples which prevent a new audience from joining Eve as by the looks of it the population has been declining in the last few months. Surely you realize that in order for your game to thrive and grow it needs to change?



Did you somehow miss Karmafleet and Pandemic Horde?



I'm looking and posting. I don't know the ins and outs of the big corps. I take it those are two you suggest looking into?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#158 - 2015-12-23 00:37:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Made another post looking for a corp and pretty much everyone who has commented thus far as told me that you are simply too weak to do anything below 2 mil SP if you want to go to nul space even with an established group. Seems like the Eve community is split on this as some claim that SP doesn't matter while another group stipulates the exact opposite. While I admit an acceleration for new players might be abused by older players that doesn't mean CCP cannot invest a way to prevent the worst of it. CCP seems smart enough to find a way to avoid the few bad apples which prevent a new audience from joining Eve as by the looks of it the population has been declining in the last few months. Surely you realize that in order for your game to thrive and grow it needs to change?



Did you somehow miss Karmafleet and Pandemic Horde?



I'm looking and posting. I don't know the ins and outs of the big corps. I take it those are two you suggest looking into?

Both have the backing/support of major Alliances:

Karmafleet: Goonswarm
Pandemic Horde: Pandemic Legion and Waffles

They are both good choices for new players and provide the fun that Brave used to provide a couple of years ago.

Skillplans, cheap ships, mentoring programs, regular organised activities, members in all timezones, forums, team speak/mumble, slack and irc servers, etc., etc., etc. You can't go wrong joining either one.
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#159 - 2015-12-23 00:41:37 UTC
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:


I'm looking and posting. I don't know the ins and outs of the big corps. I take it those are two you suggest looking into?


I can't speak for Pandemic Horde's quality since I'm not in that alliance, but I imagine it's at least as good as Karmafleet.

Regarding Karmafleet:

It is a newbie friendly corp backed by (arguably) the most successful alliance in the game. You will have opportunities to participate in basically any activity you can imagine. You will have access to learning resources and help from mentors basically 24/7. You will have access to near infinite wealth and access to those who can teach you how to make it.


Honestly there's never been a time where a new player has had easier access to the best resources. GSF invests in newbies, but generally has stuck to investing in newbies of our own external forum community only. Now it's basically a free for all for anyone who plunges in and makes an effort.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Vivias Xelnoa
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2015-12-23 00:49:42 UTC
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:


I'm looking and posting. I don't know the ins and outs of the big corps. I take it those are two you suggest looking into?


I can't speak for Pandemic Horde's quality since I'm not in that alliance, but I imagine it's at least as good as Karmafleet.

Regarding Karmafleet:

It is a newbie friendly corp backed by (arguably) the most successful alliance in the game. You will have opportunities to participate in basically any activity you can imagine. You will have access to learning resources and help from mentors basically 24/7. You will have access to near infinite wealth and access to those who can teach you how to make it.


Honestly there's never been a time where a new player has had easier access to the best resources. GSF invests in newbies, but generally has stuck to investing in newbies of our own external forum community only. Now it's basically a free for all for anyone who plunges in and makes an effort.


Isn't the Goonswarm the same thing as the Goonsquad? If so I've heard of you folks even before I played Eve.. Mostly bad. Lol