Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Yeah, and that lie about non-consent for everyone. POS and stations/outposts also allow for players to avoid non-consensual PvP. Of course, doing so makes the game horrifyingly boring...just as avoiding non-consensual PvP with a cloak is horrifyingly boring too. But, hey lets not bring this up lest Mike have an aneurysm about stations not being modules...like nobody noticed that, and that we are not talking about modules, but about avoiding non-consensual PVP.

That's quite easy.
First problem we encountered, is that we scanned down the site where the rattler was, and there was an acceleration gate. Ergo: we could not tackle the target and cyno in the fleet. (no cyno allowed).

What we did, was cyno in 1 Astero to take point and hope we could cyno in the others from a nearby offgrid. Alas, our Astero got decloaked by the rattler's MTU. Furthermore, the rattlesnake itself was 130 km further inside the plex. He quickly recloaked as apparently, the rattlesnake hadn't noticed him (it didn't move align or anything of the sort) and started "slowboating" towards the rattler -- more out of curiosity than anything else for it was apparent by then the Astero could never keep scram long enough for us to cyno in near a planet, warp to the acceleration gate, and burn 130 km to assist our comrade. Burn, yes, because can't warp inside a plex either. And slowboating, because we can't use propmods while under cloak.

By the time our yolo Astero (who would have died anyway and we knew it) got somewhat close, the rattlesnake was already done and warped to station.

You may think "you guys s*ck" and you have every right to; but we cannot prepare for every contingency and we couldn't anchor a bubble near the station without his friends noticing. Had he been entirely alone, we would have anchored that bubble and *maybe* stood a chance... but it's still guesswork and the cards are heavily stacked against us. Endless rules and regulations, preventing PvP from happening.

Because let's be honest here: that rattlesnake would have killed half our fleet even IF we could have tackled and cynoed in right on top of him. Rattlers are mean, especially bricktanked mission running ones.

Besides, most of the time he actually IS safe.

I mined Arkonor with 4 neuts in local. You don't see my Procurer on the lossboard, do you?

Cloaks are designed to make people safe. I don't care if it is a module, a structure, or a lawn sprinkler.

You keep trying to gin up this distinction as if it is meaningful.

Yes, a cloak can (in certain very limiting situations) make you very, very safe (in fact lets just assume "immune" for the sake of argument). So what? They were designed that way.

It also comes with a cost. You can't do anything so long as you want to preserve that immunity.

I am going to be pedantic and point out that 3 of us have actually done Stuff™ in system with a "hostile" in system.

AFK cloaking does not mean you have to dock up. You can take that strategy, but then the problems that come with that strategy are on the person utilizing that strategy.

Sounds to me like he took a chance and won. He wasn't safe.

I won't say you guys sucked, but you know the holes in your tactics and it had more to do with your timing and him being done than with his supposed safety.

No. My point is that the risk can be managed. If you try to "bait" the AFK cloaker and he does not take the bait it is strong evidence that he is...actually AFK. Sure he might suspect bait and do nothing, but same thing if you start ratting.

Further, if it were the case that it had no effect, for the safe of argument, it can also be left in game as well. But the reality is that quite a few loss averse people end up in NS. Against these types of players it is an effective tactic. You have staked out this type of behavior yourself, "I assume the hostile is always active" or something to that effect.

Cloaks are only "too safe" if one is essentially not playing the game. And while they are safe....you are safe from them. This has been Mag's point all along. They are only safe so long as they do NOT engage you.

And yeah, when a player undocks he consents to PvP. This is true for cloaks too. When they undock you can shoot them. You can shoot them when they move. Only when they avoid all that PvP, get to a safe spot and then cloak up are they "immune" to PvP...and people are immune from attack from them. It's fine.

Cloaks are too safe so long as they allow for 100% safety outside of a dock. The camper isn't 'not playing the game'. He is projecting threat and forcing defensive response from others in the system. Even if you accept the camper is 'not playing the game' as an excuse for that level of safety, you would logically support pods and shuttles also being safe, since they can't do anything either.

Regardless... If you are not inside a structure, you need to be at some form of risk. Cloaks do not pass that standard.

On the flipside of that...

If it's OK to be safe, it's ok to be safe.

Everyone should be safe until they choose not to be, no matter how it affects anyone else, for any reason.

I mean, let's not be cherry picking here. It's Ok, or not, for everyone

I see the gymnastics continue, yet the entirety of lowsec manage with neuts EVERYWHERE. Some of them docked, actually LITERALLY invincible.

Maybe they are just made of sterner stuff.

Or is that next? "CCPLEASE LET ME UNDOCK PPL"

?