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Why should ccp nerf incursions?

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wallenbergaren
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-01-08 18:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: wallenbergaren
Cambarus wrote:
We're talking about top of the pack fleets here. 3 minutes from payout to payout is certainly doable. (back when I was soloing the sites with my vindi I could clear an NCO in 6 from payout to payout) I use that 3 minute mark to calculate the lowsec sites (keeping in mind that you have no competition and no one else running the other NCOs that you're not) at 15 mil a site, 3 minutes per site, 20 sites an hour, 300mil. Without competition what is only possible in theory in HS is actually viable in lowsec. In theory, you could make 210 mil in highsec, but you'll never actually see that number, simply because there is too much competition driving the number of available NCOs down, not even factoring in competition for sites you're currently running.

When I run my comparisons I tend to use numbers that assume you're at the absolute peak of what can be done in terms of skills/setups, and I assume you're at the very top of the pack when it comes to knowing how to actually do things. This is mostly because the only way to objectively compare things, as far as game balance is concerned, is to remove the player variable entirely by making the player on either side of the comparison evenly skilled, and the only way to ensure that is to assume that both sides play flawlessly (since there isn't really a way to numerically asses how skilled a player is IRL)

Not having to compete, and not having other people draining off the NCOs plays just as big a role in potential earnings as the extra payouts from the sites.


I have a hard time buying into your figures. 4 minute ticks, sure, 3 minute ones, ehh.. The average travel time between sites is probably close to one minute. I haven't timed it but even for short warps you have to get up to your warp speed, then slow down again and then go through the acc. gate. That means your average completion time needs to be close to 2 minutes which I find unrealistic. Maybe you know something I don't but I doubt it.

And also, maybe I didn't make this clear enough, but you won't be doing NCOs most of the time in lowsec. They are more like a nice surprise every once in a while. You need to clear out the NMCs and OTAs for them to spawn, and those sites take significantly longer for Legion fleets. Maybe you have some kind of battleship fleet in mind, but I'd advise against using those in lowsec. Finally, I actually run these and am not just theorycrafting numbers. I'm not going to tell you my fit, but I think you can assume a fairly high base level of competency among the people who actually run them in lowsec. Those who don't know what they're doing don't tend to be around for very long.
Heun zero
MAYHEM BOYZ
#62 - 2012-01-08 18:57:06 UTC
Heun zero wrote:
Like in all the nerf the incursion threads I've read this threat has a lot of exaggeration, especially when people start comparing different scources of income to each other. This only leads to unbelievable cases and escalating arguments...


Cambarus wrote:

We're talking about top of the pack fleets here. 3 minutes from payout to payout is certainly doable. (back when I was soloing the sites with my vindi I could clear an NCO in 6 from payout to payout)



now 3 mins from pay out to pay out seems to be a bit of an overstatement to me, although I'm sure someone could produce a video of it being done in 3 mins. But soloing sites in a vindi.... Dont think it can be done let alone in 6 minutes.

besides that your argument is that the only objective way to compare things is to use their absolute peak, that is untrue though.
It is far better to compare the average of what people actually do make instead of what theoretically could be made under perfect cicrumstances. There are many factors that can disrupt the perfect circumstances, and you're not taking these into account when comparing only the absolute peak.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#63 - 2012-01-08 19:53:28 UTC
Heun zero wrote:

now 3 mins from pay out to pay out seems to be a bit of an overstatement to me, although I'm sure someone could produce a video of it being done in 3 mins. But soloing sites in a vindi.... Dont think it can be done let alone in 6 minutes.

besides that your argument is that the only objective way to compare things is to use their absolute peak, that is untrue though.
It is far better to compare the average of what people actually do make instead of what theoretically could be made under perfect cicrumstances. There are many factors that can disrupt the perfect circumstances, and you're not taking these into account when comparing only the absolute peak.

I've seen 3 minute sites done before, but as I said, that's looking at an absolutely best case scenario wrt fits and pilot skills. I've seen claims of as low as 2 and a half, but have never witnessed these first hand. I already explained my reasoning behind this

As for me and my vindi; I'm fairly well known among the older incursion runners, though I stopped running them after I saved up enough to buy an utu. It wasn't done with 1 account mind you, I had 2 basis (later swapped to scimis), a vindi, and a leadership tengu plus a few more useless alts I used to soak up isk payouts from the sites.

Also, you really can't look at incursions from the average player's perspective. The average player has a mediocre ship, and after you factor in the time spent moving and trying to find a fleet is lucky to pull in 50mil an hour. Incursions, being as highly competitive as they are, really aren't that profitable if you're not already really good at them. The whole argument around nerfing incursions is based on those few who pull in a lot of isk, and if you argue with the idea that most incursion runners really don't make that much, you'll get bombarded with people insisting that every single incursion runner out there makes 120+mil per hour, because those are the only ones you ever hear about on the forums. It may not be accurate, but since the high end incursion runners are the people around whom most of these threads start, you really can't make a good argument about incursions from the average joe's point of view.

Dztrgovac wrote:
Ahem. Lowsec and 00 Incursions pay 66% more by default. So if you can make 120m to 150m in highsec then it is rather simple math that outside of highsec you should get 200m to 250m

Ahem. This would only be true if you had the same number of people running incursions in lowsec as you do in highsec. Fewer people running sites = more good sites to be run = more isk per hour.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2012-01-08 21:31:06 UTC
Heun zero wrote:

now 3 mins from pay out to pay out seems to be a bit of an overstatement to me ...


I'm no incursion guru but have been 10-ship in VG fleets that achieve this turnover rate for quite long periods of time. Those fleets have been made-up of 2 - 3 logi-5 basilisks (you don't need heaps of logi when the Sansha don't live very long), 1 - 2 webber loki, all other on-grid slots taken with T2-autocannon / webber fit machariels (or the occasional nightmare), plus a maxi-skilled implanted-fitted offgrid fleet booster and hauler / orca support to keep ore available when the fleet runs mining colonies.

Stealing sites, that others have part completed, also gives a pretty dramatic boost to your average site turnover rates.

IIRC I've also been in some 11-ship VG fleets that manage a higher cash-flow rate, by quicker site completion and more effective site 'steals', despite a lower per-ship-per-site return.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#65 - 2012-01-08 21:45:27 UTC
Dztrgovac wrote:
Ahem. Lowsec and 00 Incursions pay 66% more by default. So if you can make 120m to 150m in highsec then it is rather simple math that outside of highsec you should get 200m to 250m


You Sire are an quite fine gentlemen. But still you fail at logic when you ignore all other limiting factors of high sec incursion income which may not all apply in low or null sec. *cough* And did you notice someone explained them all directly before your post?

Remove insurance.
Dztrgovac
#66 - 2012-01-08 23:42:17 UTC
You understood me completely wrong. I was putting forward the "minimum" outside of highsec figure. Yes people above have said very well; you don't have to compete for sites in low-sec; and especially not in 00.So we could say that earnings are most likely upward of 250m.

That is the entire point. People are crying that high-sec incursions pay too much; while in practice low-sec and 00 incursions pay much more. And that incentive isn't enough to get most of high-sec incursion runners to go to low-sec (going to 00 would be insanity)

If people do convince CCP to nerf high-sec incursiosn they still won't get juicy targets to shoot. As always. Some will quit (nearly all other PVE in EVE is dead boring). Those who are willing to take a risk will just go to wormholes. Much less risk compared to lowsec incursion "we are hear in our billion isk faction fit ships, please come gank us"; and actually much more reward also.

Otoh, while nobody is even talking about it (Incursion runners like it and don't want to change it; opponents want highsec incursions gone or nerfed to the ground), profitability of doing solely vanguard sites should be looked at.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#67 - 2012-01-08 23:46:04 UTC
Dztrgovac wrote:


If people do convince CCP to nerf high-sec incursiosn they still won't get juicy targets to shoot.


This is by far my most favorite paranoia of high sec bears who have never stepped beyond .5 security: the notion that low sec/null sec players give a damn if you come to provide them more targets is laughably stupid.
Dztrgovac
#68 - 2012-01-09 00:31:00 UTC
While I really wouldn't lose anything (other than showing I'm crap PVPer) by posting with my main; I really have to say that I've been out of highsec.

Lowsec is so very interesting. 10 empty systems and then 2 systems with 10 pirates from couple different alliances in each. Carebearing there? Well actually I do; but only for thrill of the chase.

For 5 years now I've been watching people demanding more juicy targets in lowsec. And occasionally CCP listens. The sig masking of deadspace... gone. Highsec L5 gone. 100% unprobeable T3s... gone. Taxing the NPC corps whines? CCP obeyed. And you always end with less targets in lowsec and highsec targets refusing to go to lowsec.

Individuals who are willing to take a risk will take their Tengu and do 00 pirate missions or 00 exploration. 00 has bubbles, but lowsec has much more people hunting for you; and 00 pays so much more.

Back to Incursions. I said it clearly. Why risk your fleet doing lowsec sites? If you use expendible cheap fits your ISK/hr drops to point where you better go solo highsec L4 missions with a pimp-ship. But even if you have modestly pimped fleet that can make profit from lowsec incursion payout bonus.... how long before a fleet from a real PVP shaker and mover group comes? Goons, RnK, maybe TEST, maybe one of big pirate groups. Sure if they want site payouts they have to obey size limits; but if they just want to gank you they don't care about that.

About only single factor of "safety" lowsec incursions have is no cap and supercap drops.

I already asked. Why risk your fleet in lowsec doing incursiosn when you can move in a WH and earn so much more?
Joe D'Trader
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2012-01-09 01:31:55 UTC
Before you guys keep bickering I'd like to clear up a serious math error


High sec Vangards ~12 mill

Low/Null ~15 mill

(15-12)/15 = 3/15 = 1/5 = 20% payout in low/null

Not this stupid 60% you guys are claiming.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#70 - 2012-01-09 01:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Joe D'Trader wrote:
Before you guys keep bickering I'd like to clear up a serious math error


High sec Vangards ~12 mill

Low/Null ~15 mill

(15-12)/15 = 3/15 = 1/5 = 20% payout in low/null

Not this stupid 60% you guys are claiming.

Highsec vanguards pay out 10.5mil per site per person. Please leave.
EDIT:
You also have a poor grasp of basic math.
When you say that something is X% more than something else, you count upwards from the smaller number.
Using your (fake) numbers that would be

12*x = 15
x= 15/12
x=1.25, or a 25% increase (as in, you need to increase the highsec payout by 25% to get the lowsec payout, again using you fake numbers)

EDIT again:
Just so we're clear on why you do this:
Add 20% to 12, and what do you get? (it's 14.4)
So 15 is clearly not 20% more than 12.

And with the actual numbers (10,5 and 15) you get 42.8% increase in raw payouts.

EDIT last one I promise:
tThe only guy who claimed anything like 60% was already called out repeatedly for being a moron (though for other reasons)
Dztrgovac
#71 - 2012-01-09 02:28:29 UTC
Please open journal in game. Then go to incursions. Thare CCP has nicely given pay out charts for varying number of players. There are two lines on the graph; one for highsec, one for lowsec and 00. Compare the two numbers.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#72 - 2012-01-09 03:15:04 UTC
Dztrgovac wrote:


For 5 years now I've been watching people demanding more juicy targets in lowsec. And occasionally CCP listens. The sig masking of deadspace... gone. Highsec L5 gone. 100% unprobeable T3s... gone. Taxing the NPC corps whines? CCP obeyed. And you always end with less targets in lowsec and highsec targets refusing to go to lowsec.


Please link me to a single post where someone said 'DAMN I WANT MOAR JUICY TARGETS IN LOW SEC"

Oh right, there aren't any. You're just paranoid that theres a bunch of starving sharks waiting for the elusive bears.


As for going to low sec for incursions, you're right, in their current incarnation, no real point. Either stay in high sec and farm or go to wh space and make more.

However, if incursions were limited to low sec, just think about it just for a second. What do you think they'd be worth then? I'm not talking about isk now. I'm talking about LP. If there were (and there are) items in demand limited to the CONCORD store and only accessible via LP gained from incursions, low sec only incursions would in fact be worth doing. CCP had a great chance to finally make unique resources to be had in low sec and low sec only and they threw it away in favor of high sec farming.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#73 - 2012-01-09 03:49:26 UTC
Dztrgovac wrote:
Please open journal in game. Then go to incursions. Thare CCP has nicely given pay out charts for varying number of players. There are two lines on the graph; one for highsec, one for lowsec and 00. Compare the two numbers.

Please go run a highsec vanguard.

Or for that matter, show me exactly where on the encounters journal it says that highsec guys get 12mil per site. What I see when I look at it is
15,000,000 isk * ratio
2,000 CONCORD LP * ratio

The second number is not only not referring to the isk in highsec, but it doesn't even say 12,000,000 Lol

Please, please just leave. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#74 - 2012-01-09 03:57:55 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:

However, if incursions were limited to low sec, just think about it just for a second. What do you think they'd be worth then? I'm not talking about isk now. I'm talking about LP. If there were (and there are) items in demand limited to the CONCORD store and only accessible via LP gained from incursions, low sec only incursions would in fact be worth doing. CCP had a great chance to finally make unique resources to be had in low sec and low sec only and they threw it away in favor of high sec farming.

YEAH! MAKE LVL 5s LOWSEC ONLY!

Wait what were we talking about?


Seriously though, incursions currently offer the only group oriented highsec PVE, and there are a LOT of people who enjoy them. What they offer is unique specifically BECAUSE it's in highsec.

If they wanted to risk getting shot at they;d join WH corps (the isk is better, and the space is safer). As for the LP being worth anything; it won't. Named capital mods are mostly used for supercaps, simply because they're just too damn expensive for most dreads and carriers, and the demand just isn't high enough for the mods to be easily sold (because it's a LOT easier to get the guns than the ships onto which they tend to be fit)
Endeavour Starfleet
#75 - 2012-01-09 03:58:49 UTC
Move Incursions into lowsec = fail. Period.. They were MADE to give benefit for grouping and the risks it entails.

Sorry you cant afford to fly a shiny ship or train up to use something in demand. However they arent going to be moved or nerfed. That would cause people to go back to pounding IVs and give nullsec alliances more power to dictate how their members spend their time.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#76 - 2012-01-09 04:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: XXSketchxx
Cambarus wrote:
XXSketchxx wrote:

However, if incursions were limited to low sec, just think about it just for a second. What do you think they'd be worth then? I'm not talking about isk now. I'm talking about LP. If there were (and there are) items in demand limited to the CONCORD store and only accessible via LP gained from incursions, low sec only incursions would in fact be worth doing. CCP had a great chance to finally make unique resources to be had in low sec and low sec only and they threw it away in favor of high sec farming.

YEAH! MAKE LVL 5s LOWSEC ONLY!

Wait what were we talking about?


Seriously though, incursions currently offer the only group oriented highsec PVE, and there are a LOT of people who enjoy them. What they offer is unique specifically BECAUSE it's in highsec.

If they wanted to risk getting shot at they;d join WH corps (the isk is better, and the space is safer). As for the LP being worth anything; it won't. Named capital mods are mostly used for supercaps, simply because they're just too damn expensive for most dreads and carriers, and the demand just isn't high enough for the mods to be easily sold (because it's a LOT easier to get the guns than the ships onto which they tend to be fit)


Except that lvl 5s simply don't pay out enough for groups nor do they generate anything unique

Incursions do and they require pvp-esque fits and strategies, similar to wormholes.

I'm not saying Incursions should be moved to low sec now, such a change would do nothing at this point other than enrage the people farming them, as I've stated (seriously do you people even read?). I'm saying that had they been implemented as a low sec only feature, with modules that would actually be in demand, with PVE requiring pvp strategies and fits, they could have been quite the gold mine in low sec.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#77 - 2012-01-09 04:10:48 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:


Except that lvl 5s simply don't pay out enough for groups nor do they generate anything unique

Incursions do and they require pvp-esque fits and strategies, similar to wormholes.

I'm not saying Incursions should be moved to low sec now, such a change would do nothing at this point other than enrage the people farming them, as I've stated (seriously do you people even read?). I'm saying that had they been implemented as a low sec only feature, with modules that would actually be in demand, with PVE requiring pvp strategies and fits, they could have been quite the gold mine in low sec.

It IS quite the gold mine in lowsec. It's literally one of the most well balanced things with regards to how much isk you make running them in highsec compared to lowsec. The problem is that people look at group PVE, compare it to nullsec solo PVE, decide that the difference isn't big enough and start bitching about it.
Endeavour Starfleet
#78 - 2012-01-09 04:30:16 UTC
Can you find no better words than strangers grouping together for ONCE in hisec "farming" ??

You fly a good craft and get an invite. A logi DCs and the other one is drunk and repping the wrong ship. Game over..

Farming implies easy. Little to no risk activities. Relying on strangers with your multibillion isk fit because you like grouping is closer to PVP than it is nullbear or mission farming.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#79 - 2012-01-09 04:33:30 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

It IS quite the gold mine in lowsec. It's literally one of the most well balanced things with regards to how much isk you make running them in highsec compared to lowsec. The problem is that people look at group PVE, compare it to nullsec solo PVE, decide that the difference isn't big enough and start bitching about it.


I agree with you that in terms of balance between the securities its quite fine.

My problem is with the raw isk generation and inflation it causes, not to mention the potential isk amounts that can be generated in high security risks. You and others may seem to think that the "risks" involved are enough, but I don't, we've all said our parts on that and I doubt either side is going to give ground on that.

I know nothing's going to change. I've said that multiple times. I just see Incursions as what could have been the unique pve experience that low sec needs. Instead, they offered a high sec option, resulting in the current status quo.
Penirg Man
Penirgman Defence Force
#80 - 2012-01-09 05:03:56 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

It IS quite the gold mine in lowsec. It's literally one of the most well balanced things with regards to how much isk you make running them in highsec compared to lowsec. The problem is that people look at group PVE, compare it to nullsec solo PVE, decide that the difference isn't big enough and start bitching about it.


I agree with you that in terms of balance between the securities its quite fine.

My problem is with the raw isk generation and inflation it causes, not to mention the potential isk amounts that can be generated in high security risks. You and others may seem to think that the "risks" involved are enough, but I don't, we've all said our parts on that and I doubt either side is going to give ground on that.

I know nothing's going to change. I've said that multiple times. I just see Incursions as what could have been the unique pve experience that low sec needs. Instead, they offered a high sec option, resulting in the current status quo.


It wouldn't be a unique pve experience. It would turn into a pvp warzone if incursions were to be low sec only. You'd have all the pirates camping the systems because of all the juicy targets to kill. It would probably have more pvp action than the FW areas Big smile