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Buff Dreads versus Supers
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Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-01-06 19:14:53 UTC
Make any dread do siege-level damage to supers (supercarriers and titans) when not in siege.

Simple, effective nullsec playing-field leveller.
James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#2 - 2012-01-06 20:16:38 UTC
Inmei T'ko wrote:
Make any dread do siege-level damage to supers (supercarriers and titans) when not in siege.

Simple, effective nullsec playing-field leveller.

A bit too extreme. You'd find yourself with Pantheon carriers and Dreads that are nearly invulnerable.

Perhaps you could script a siege module to receive only a 100-200% damage boost, same tracking nerf, and allow it to receive remote aid and move.

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Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-01-06 20:33:37 UTC
James Arget wrote:
Inmei T'ko wrote:
Make any dread do siege-level damage to supers (supercarriers and titans) when not in siege.

Simple, effective nullsec playing-field leveller.

A bit too extreme. You'd find yourself with Pantheon carriers and Dreads that are nearly invulnerable.

Perhaps you could script a siege module to receive only a 100-200% damage boost, same tracking nerf, and allow it to receive remote aid and move.


Currently we have momblobs and titanblobs that are invulnerable and can basically control massive areas of null at the whim of a very small group of mega-alliances. I think this change would allow the average player's alliance to enter into the sov game with a measure of confidence, and I think that is a good thing.

Supercarriers and titans still have a massive advantage over dreads - more tank, more DPS, more mobility, more numbers. It is not unbalanced to allow dreads to do more damage. It is merely less expensive and more accessible.
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-01-06 21:01:29 UTC
The fact that the sov system relies on so much structure shooting is probably a significant contributor to supers being such a pain. The only role for a subcap fleet in sov warfare is to shoot the fleet that's shooting the structures so that they can't shoot structures, if nobody turns up to shoot you then it's just pure grind.

Making sov warfare so that it's not all about structure shoots would be the final solution to the supercap question.
Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-01-06 21:27:29 UTC
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
The fact that the sov system relies on so much structure shooting is probably a significant contributor to supers being such a pain. The only role for a subcap fleet in sov warfare is to shoot the fleet that's shooting the structures so that they can't shoot structures, if nobody turns up to shoot you then it's just pure grind.

Making sov warfare so that it's not all about structure shoots would be the final solution to the supercap question.


I agree that the sov system needs fixing. And it may be that since this winter expansion has removed much of a super's ability to attack subcaps, then possibly the superblob issue is not such a big deal anymore. I still see these ships as a serious problem for small alliances that are looking to get a toehold. JFs, carriers, and dreads are all still very easy to kill with these "elite" weapons and this causes smaller upstart groups no end of grief in trying to establish themselves.

If dreads could reasonably have a chance at fighting back and possibly even killing supers, then we would see at least the potential for smaller alliances to shift the political deadlock in nullsec. And less supers is just overall good for EVE imo. Buffed dreads would mean potetntially more dead supers and titans.
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-01-07 04:17:51 UTC
Inmei T'ko wrote:
I agree that the sov system needs fixing. And it may be that since this winter expansion has removed much of a super's ability to attack subcaps, then possibly the superblob issue is not such a big deal anymore.

Let me tell you about how horribly wrong you are about that.

Our fleet was doing pretty well against White Noise, then Raiden bridged in a pure tengu fleet, and we hopped around in the system a bit before coming back to engage again. Then raiden decided to just press the win button rather than risk fighting us with subcaps, and they dropped their super blob on us. We knew the supers were online and ready, but what else are you going to do on a Friday night?

It's a shame because it was a good fight up until that point, killed a bunch of Tengus which is always nice, and we don't care about welping a fleet. The only thing that saddens me is that they spammed 'gf' in local after dropping supers on us and then 'o7' ed each other.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#7 - 2012-01-07 04:22:42 UTC
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
Inmei T'ko wrote:
I agree that the sov system needs fixing. And it may be that since this winter expansion has removed much of a super's ability to attack subcaps, then possibly the superblob issue is not such a big deal anymore.

Let me tell you about how horribly wrong you are about that.

Our fleet was doing pretty well against White Noise, then Raiden bridged in a pure tengu fleet, and we hopped around in the system a bit before coming back to engage again. Then raiden decided to just press the win button rather than risk fighting us with subcaps, and they dropped their super blob on us. We knew the supers were online and ready, but what else are you going to do on a Friday night?

It's a shame because it was a good fight up until that point, killed a bunch of Tengus which is always nice, and we don't care about welping a fleet. The only thing that saddens me is that they spammed 'gf' in local after dropping supers on us and then 'o7' ed each other.


Pure Tengu fleet = bait. I think that's how they say they owned you.
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Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-01-07 04:39:57 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Pure Tengu fleet = bait. I think that's how they say they owned you.


I already said we knew that the supers were there. The sad fact is we were having an enjoyable friday night bout and they called in supers even though they probably could have won the fight with the tengublob.

Anyway the point is that supers are still very effective against subcaps
Goose99
#9 - 2012-01-07 05:32:10 UTC
Remove tracking nerf for siege, keep everything else. Fixed.Cool
Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-01-08 15:59:13 UTC
All this just underscores the need for an accessible anti-superblob weapon for small alliances, and I keep coming back to the dread being that weapon.

I don't like the idea of removing the tracking nerfs in siege mode because for one, siege mode means no remote reps and that sucks compared to the supercarrier or titan's obvious advantages, (massive DPS, EHP, immunity to EWAR, potential spider tank) and for two, you could then start using dreads versus subcaps as well and I am not sure anymore if that would be a good idea.

All dreads would need is a good damage buff versus supers without siege mode, and we'd have a mobile, somewhat capable weapon versus supers that people would consider using. THat is what we need.
Goose99
#11 - 2012-01-08 17:31:24 UTC
Inmei T'ko wrote:
All this just underscores the need for an accessible anti-superblob weapon for small alliances, and I keep coming back to the dread being that weapon.

I don't like the idea of removing the tracking nerfs in siege mode because for one, siege mode means no remote reps and that sucks compared to the supercarrier or titan's obvious advantages, (massive DPS, EHP, immunity to EWAR, potential spider tank) and for two, you could then start using dreads versus subcaps as well and I am not sure anymore if that would be a good idea.

All dreads would need is a good damage buff versus supers without siege mode, and we'd have a mobile, somewhat capable weapon versus supers that people would consider using. THat is what we need.


No. Dreads have enough hp that they'll never die with rr. Remove tracking penalty so that they can hit more than POS, and all is well.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2012-01-08 18:35:23 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Inmei T'ko wrote:
All this just underscores the need for an accessible anti-superblob weapon for small alliances, and I keep coming back to the dread being that weapon.

I don't like the idea of removing the tracking nerfs in siege mode because for one, siege mode means no remote reps and that sucks compared to the supercarrier or titan's obvious advantages, (massive DPS, EHP, immunity to EWAR, potential spider tank) and for two, you could then start using dreads versus subcaps as well and I am not sure anymore if that would be a good idea.

All dreads would need is a good damage buff versus supers without siege mode, and we'd have a mobile, somewhat capable weapon versus supers that people would consider using. THat is what we need.


No. Dreads have enough hp that they'll never die with rr. Remove tracking penalty so that they can hit more than POS, and all is well.


He does have a point, and it'd get rid of the ludicrous situations like supercarriers speed tanking seiged dreads...
Taint
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-01-08 21:11:38 UTC
Inmei T'ko wrote:
James Arget wrote:
Inmei T'ko wrote:
Make any dread do siege-level damage to supers (supercarriers and titans) when not in siege.

Simple, effective nullsec playing-field leveller.

A bit too extreme. You'd find yourself with Pantheon carriers and Dreads that are nearly invulnerable.

Perhaps you could script a siege module to receive only a 100-200% damage boost, same tracking nerf, and allow it to receive remote aid and move.


Currently we have momblobs and titanblobs that are invulnerable and can basically control massive areas of null at the whim of a very small group of mega-alliances. I think this change would allow the average player's alliance to enter into the sov game with a measure of confidence, and I think that is a good thing.

Supercarriers and titans still have a massive advantage over dreads - more tank, more DPS, more mobility, more numbers. It is not unbalanced to allow dreads to do more damage. It is merely less expensive and more accessible.



Maybe and just maybe that if you plan works that the Big alliances would just get into dreads on their main and alts ?
That would mean that they are gonna be more overpowered, they gave supers a nerf they should have, just wait and se if it isnt enough, or ccp needs to swing the nerf hammer once more at em.
Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-01-09 01:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Inmei T'ko
Goose99 wrote:

No. Dreads have enough hp that they'll never die with rr. Remove tracking penalty so that they can hit more than POS, and all is well.


Short sighted and closed minded Goose99. Carriers and dreads are manifestly NOT immune to EWAR. Neither are they anywhere near as tough as supercarriers or titans, neither do they have anywhere near the DPS capability of supers. The advantages in this scenario are still strongly on the side of the superblobs. Dreads would now just have an opportunity to make a dent in a superblob. A much needed opportunity for anyone that is trying to get a foothold in nullsec.
Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-01-09 01:31:50 UTC
Taint wrote:

Maybe and just maybe that if you plan works that the Big alliances would just get into dreads on their main and alts ?
That would mean that they are gonna be more overpowered, they gave supers a nerf they should have, just wait and se if it isnt enough, or ccp needs to swing the nerf hammer once more at em.


So they get in dreads. Great. These same dreads are not effective versus carriers unless they are in siege mode. Not effective versus one another unless in siege mode. Only buffed versus supercarriers and titans. So no, people with superblobs would still want to use their extremely high spider tank/EWAR invulnverability/high DPS/massive EHP. Those who woud want to use dreads against them would be those who do not have massive supercapital blobs but who need a defensive or offensive weapon capable of countering them.
Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-01-11 12:42:21 UTC
For that matter if two large groups of dreads did try fighting one another and went into siege mode, that would be the optimal time for the supers to hotdrop in and wipe them out.