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I was using them because the ship could use them. That's the whole point. They charged me for something and then changed the product out from under me.

I want to pay for content I want, not content I paid for but won't use now because it's completely different.
And yes I did pay for it. Telling me I can still use the skills is slimy shell game BS. Think about the question, "why not refund skill points?" From CCP's business perspective and the answer is, "Then they have to pay to play skill Que online more." Which is something I think we should all find disgusting.

Hi Nevyn,
Sorry, you are commenting on the wrong thread, there are no FOTMs here. We're talking about capitals. Capitals are getting tech 2 modules so it's a good bet people will put skill points towards those.

If someone were to stupidly do something else, we'll they did pay for those skill points right?
As for "supposed reasons" I trained fighters on a triage pilot because that was the triage ship's weapon, now it isn't. Really simple.

What about those who trained Triage because the carrier had a bonus to it - and soon it won't?
Can any of those you mentioned not still use the skills they trained for a specific ship on those ships?

Are your gas harvesting alts no longer able to use the ship related to those skills, or do they need to fly a whole new class of ship to use them? Does new WH spawning mean you can no longer use those skills? Or are you throwing out red herrings?

I still collect data cores from my agents with my manufacturing alts - What changed?

Sorry but Rorqual is a special case, it had limited use prior to the addition of compression arrays. In reality if your running a mobile mining outfit, it is still easier to use the Rorqual than it is to cart around another 6,000m module to anchor on a pos. Also leaves 6,000m more room for compressed ore at the end of the day. (It's called choice - Something carrier pilots won't have without using a completely new and disposable class of ship.)

Removing off grid boosts doesn't mean you can't use T3's for boosting - It simply makes it less viable to do so. Red herring.

-- - -- - -- - -- - --
With these changes getting ever closer to being part of the game, it would be nice to hear something (anything) from the development team as to what we may expect.

You've come full circle again. You think that because someone trained heavy drones for their moros, they got back SP when it was removed? When supers lost access to all subcap drones?

So what makes you think that adding a new ship is going to get you a refund? Triage is'nt being removed from the game, neither are carriers. It's unfortunate for you, that you trained them for their broken aspects. But, they're non-issue portions will still be available, and you can put those skills to use, even if its a different hull.


The problem is you never questioned it. You dismissed it without any solid reason whatsoever, a simple "I dont believe it" was all you could be bothered to offer. Then turned around and expected everyone to believe in your imaginary watch list. And of course your evience is a super-secret that you can't tell anyone, but don't worry, its true so you dont need to check. So yes, you're still keeping secrets like a schoolgirl. No surprise.

Oh, and its not my spreadsheet. If you don't believe its accuracy, you can go whine to the boys at zKill and tell them how false theor data is. Its publically available too, so verify and disprove all you like, preferably with actual evidence if you know what that is.


No thanks


I linked you to a third party's spreadsheet, who got his data from a publicly available source. You're free to pull data and make your own as well. Or you could start by showing us a watchlist.

And you know nothing to be grossly innaccurate. You have nothing to prove against it. Just some strong beliefs and a bad disposition to your blob frenemies. An angry feeling you get when you think of them does not count as evidence.

If you're going to claim something, maybe you could try proving it instead of repeating "I'm right, you're wrong" over and over?


FTFY

Not sure if you were here for the battlecruiser split but CCP gave us tons of warning to make sure everyone who wanted them could train them to 5 to make sure you could continue to sly what you did before. When I say lots of warning, I mean over a year to train a 30 day skill.

Capitals and citadels are obviously a much larger change. Larger than anything else going back to the addition of wormholes. If CCP intended to give you the corresponding skill for the force auxiliary of you trained the carrier, they likely would have said so already. If they just drop that on people at the last minute they will get a lot of tears.

I believe if anything it will be some kind of refund tied to the release of the neural packets. Since we are around 4 months out, I am sure they already know exactly what they are doing. Whatever it is I am sure they will do it in such a way to make everyone feel like they gained something on the change. They tend to be good at that and it keeps people happy.

If my dread is going from 9k dps against battleships to 2k dps, I want my skill points refunded, and yes I'll unsub over it.
A 2k dps dread would be a hilarious joke if I hadn't already trained it.

What goalposts are you referring to, exactly?

And again, If one skill being used on another ship is ok after its been removed, then how is doing almost the same thing here, bad?

And, if they did indeed want to use those drones on the moros (which is an arbitrary reason, dependent on individual preferences) then they had absolutely no other choice, but to choose another ship to use the drones. Same goes for when they removed drones from supercarriers.


This is very much like todays triage carriers and to an extent, existing dreadnoughts. People use them now, and people can use them successfully. Not all the time, but that is expected, especially considering some people have a very low threshold of risk when it comes their capitals. They won't undock with overwhelming numbers or the security of replacement. As far as I'm concerned, if you won't undock a ship because you might lose it (no guarantees it will die), then I have little pity that it can't be used as safely anymore. Considering insurance exists, there is even less reason someone might be afraid to undock. A lot of people try to use big numbers like 2-3bil to lose it, when in reality, a simple insurance contract (possible exception of wormholers), will put you out less than a billion.

Maybe these carrier pilots are concerned because they never bothered to insure their ships, since the risk was so low.


I don't understand why you think the burden of proof is on me. If you're going to try and use evidence in the first place, you better be ready to show it. Or could you be lying and hoping that by turning the responsibility to me, that you won't have to actually show your watchlist? Or were you planning on making an excuse as to why my watchlist isn't good enough for you to post yours?

And I thought we already covered that the watchlist that you literally made yourself, is going to be heavily biased toward your desires, since you can literally choose who you want on it.

And since you love public intel so much, I made another parse for you:

From: https://zkillboard.com/intel/supers/
Parse: https://adashboard.info/intel/local/view/kOJMxKbD

But i'm sure that represents nothing, right? Some vague response like "It is completely and utterly false and is not representative of actual numbers, my watchlist tells me so. However, it does show how unbalanced the numbers are (even though they are wrong) and totally does not contradict my earlier statement". Something like that.

Maybe your watchlist is a better representation? I'm sure your intel is far superior to the API data from killboards. Your list has gott be like, what, a couple thousand characters? Quite amazing if it is.



It's pretty ironic that you say looking at 12 months of super kills invalidates a spreadsheet based on the same damn thing. So far, your best attempts at dodging proof have been to simply say it's wrong. You don't actually show anything, you have literally shown nothing. Maybe you'd like to show us that 12 month list of kills? Since it was so easy to bring up, maybe you'd like to share? Or are you still working on that watchlist?

You have made many claims and dismissals, which you are very good at doing, but you have always seemed to lack any kind of solid evidence. Placing the burden of proof on others, referencing personal experience, rapidly switching up the topic to avoid any attention on your mistakes, etc. Like I said, you've come full circle, your words are becoming repetitive now. I'm expecting you to reveal yourself as dinsdale any moment now.

The Devs are in the process of designing a system where you can rip out unwanted skill points and sell them on the open market. Problem solved. Yay capitalism.

If player retention was the goal, then catering to the needs of newer players is far more important (they have much higher turnover). Giving them affordable and comprehensible access to skill points argues towards let the market decide solutions on compensation.

And skills -> isk certainly is a plus if skill point bloating is a concern.

The counter argument that a certain class of player has more isk than they could ever need is not really a relevant argument. Buy plexes for charity or something if that is the issue :).

All told, the devs have the matter in hand.

You all are mad because of that "just 2k dps" while nobody ever said that this number is final ....
I'll give you one example, lets take my favourit dread, the pheonix
As we all know, you only need 2 guidiance computers, 1 explusionradius rig and a rapier with 3 TPs + Informationlinks, as
result? A Battleship even with Skirmish links is getting hit for full damage as long as it is slower than 137.6 m/s, the phoenix does NOT need drugs for this.
Now it doesn't matter how much you fix turretdreads with low tracking etc, as long as Sig and Explusionradius are 100% responsible for dmg application of missiles (because to get down to 140m/s is just 1-2 webs, nothing difficult at all to accomplish), the blaphpoenix will be superior and op in compairson to all post-rebalancedreads.
Also the trackingformula is important to keep in mind, those 2k dps are made for "if you orbit the dread at >500m/s (with or without ab doesn't matter)" if you orbit it, you can't be hit by it, even if webbed (manual piloting to orbit even closer and max out transversal, ever heard of it?!)
However if you are @ ~ 25k from the dread your speed is lower than 20 m/s even an artynag without trackingmods can and will hit you, now if we keep in mind that most of the people crying here were nullseccers and not wh dwellers, I doubt that your dreads usually get orbited at 500, with manual piloted ships to max out transversal, usually you're all following an anchor who's keeping at least some distance to dreads.
This is just one example to show you, that all this salt is a waste, dreadblaps will still be viable in certain circumstances and as long as Application for Turretweapons and Missiles is not reworked, they'll not change.
Dreads vs Caps shouldn't change at all, lets be honest, i've never seen a speed-/transversaltanking Pantheoncarrier yet and i doubt they'll become a thing ....
How to fix ? Rolebonus to limit DPS on Sub-Caps!