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Increase SP acquisition for new accounts

Author
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#21 - 2015-12-21 02:00:46 UTC
I can personally attest, we're beset by the Entitled By Birth crowd.

Don't make me WAIT! I want it NOW!!

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Vivias Xelnoa
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2015-12-21 02:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Vivias Xelnoa
Tippia wrote:
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
guys change the game to benefit low-patience casuals. this sure will help player retention long term.

Nice assumption there.. So being new equal casual?

Nice assumption there. Note how he said nothing about being new and instead talks about having low patience?

Quote:
I didn't feel your explanation provided evidence for your comment and I still don't.

Try reading it again. It was very straight-forward: this is a niche game. It involves having patience in most things. Getting rid of the niche means losing its customer base, and trying to replace that customer base with one that seeks instant gratification means that the new customers will soon be gone too.


You aren't helping to convince me of anything but the elitist want their special sandbox to shrink until it dies. That's your choice. Peace.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2015-12-21 02:03:09 UTC
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
You aren't helping to convince me

Try reading. Or don't. Your choice.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-12-21 02:13:43 UTC
What we need to attract new players is to help them understand how they can jump right up to the top with skills down at the bottom. It all starts, continues, and ends with frigates. You can and will do awesome things in a frigate. You might never do anything awesome in a battleship no matter how long you play or how skilled you get, but if you keep trying, you will most definitely do something completely awesome in a frigate.

Once you understand how powerful a tool a frigate can be, you can take it one step further and learn to understand that even better than most veteran players. Once you're there, you can use your own skill and experience to surpass your character's skills and do something awesome or important.

I cannot stress this enough: you will most certainly do something awesome and important faster by focusing on frigates than by focusing on anything else. The end-game in EVE starts when you finally realize that frigates are the end-game. Why play EVE? Aside from it being a sandbox where your moves change the game for everyone else, you can be part of a larger world, and you can reach the end-game almost immediately after starting. That's why.





Boosting skillpoint training rates for new characters or new accounts will only help veteran players at strong expense to actual new players.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#25 - 2015-12-21 02:35:31 UTC
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Sure the boosters I got when I joined were cool. I just don't think it is enough. At this point I won't be spending further with this game and continue to wait for SC where they removed all artificial skill gains.

Oh ok. In that case, good luck I guess.

Just a whinge thread in the end. Disappointing.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2015-12-21 02:39:31 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Sure the boosters I got when I joined were cool. I just don't think it is enough. At this point I won't be spending further with this game and continue to wait for SC where they removed all artificial skill gains.

Oh ok. In that case, good luck I guess.

Just a whinge thread in the end. Disappointing.

…and by the time SC is out, the amount of SP you could have accumulated at current speeds in the meantime would probably be in the hundreds of millions. Lol
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#27 - 2015-12-21 02:41:31 UTC
EVE isn't a game where the having of the biggest thing is important. This is not a conventional Themepark MMO where the gear rating of your character or your character's level is a barrier to content. Essentially all of the types of content in the game are available almost immediately to anyone with the will to become involved in that content.

You can literally go into the recruitment channel and type in "I'm a total newbie and I want to dunk on bads and be an awesome space badass" and like half a dozen people will convo you up and offer to make you a part of their particular kind of space outfit.

The actual barriers are fear, ignorance and unwillingness to engage with other players. Not SP or ISK.

Players become more powerful by understanding the game and engaging with it in meaningful ways, not by getting more of a certain kind of points.
Vivias Xelnoa
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2015-12-21 02:45:47 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
EVE isn't a game where the having of the biggest thing is important. This is not a conventional Themepark MMO where the gear rating of your character or your character's level is a barrier to content. Essentially all of the types of content in the game are available almost immediately to anyone with the will to become involved in that content.

You can literally go into the recruitment channel and type in "I'm a total newbie and I want to dunk on bads and be an awesome space badass" and like half a dozen people will convo you up and offer to make you a part of their particular kind of space outfit.

The actual barriers are fear, ignorance and unwillingness to engage with other players. Not SP or ISK.

Players become more powerful by understanding the game and engaging with it in meaningful ways, not by getting more of a certain kind of points.


If this is true why do so many corps have huge SP requirements? To my this seems to illustrate the fact these points are very important because if it was simply knowledge they could teach that.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#29 - 2015-12-21 02:51:00 UTC
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:

If this is true why do so many corps have huge SP requirements? To my this seems to illustrate the fact these points are very important because if it was simply knowledge they could teach that.

1. Most corps don't.
2. Those corps are often lead by ignorant people, and in the few exceptions they aren't, are very specifically an elite group (Rooks and Kings I think of here as a group which I understand had SP requirements at one stage).
3. Most corps don't, again. Join one that doesn't if you don't have the SP.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#30 - 2015-12-21 02:51:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
If this is true why do so many corps have huge SP requirements?

Because it correlates with time and they are too lazy or incompetent to teach new players how to play. They want you to come in with, say, a year worth of game experience and some ability to fill the corp's coffers support yourself financially.

Adjusting the starting point of new players will not let you join those corps any sooner since the requirements will be adjusted to match the exact same time equivalent. It will also not change the fact that you don't want to join such a corp since they have nothing of value to offer a new player (or indeed any player) to begin with.
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#31 - 2015-12-21 02:55:35 UTC
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Paul Pohl wrote:
If there is a problem, it is equating skill points to actual player skill.... speeding up the first does not speed up the latter


Indeed. Skill acquired in learning the game doesn't change.. It merely adjusts the background stats which give the vets an advantage. I get that they spent the time into the game and I'm not trying to remove that.. I just think speeding up the bar for new players is healthy for the game as a whole.


Oh grow up....

Sure a vet... (god I hate that term)... can pop you before you target them (or whatever)... big deal.... pay for the insurance and have a reserve stock of PVE fittings...

What you are missing is that there are plenty of places where you can go, and make money, and have fun, and train skills, and do stuff, that have precisely naff all to do with 'vets' - the skill is in finding them - and staying away from 'vet' corps looking to help you.

All your moan does is to allow 'vets' to train their alts faster, which in turn compounds the supposed misery that underlies the meme of your complaint.

Let genuine newbs understand the potential difference between capacitor III and capacitor IV - and enjoy the complaints of the 'vets' who already know the difference and are grinding their teeth that despite having sixteen screens running in thei command bunker under the stairs, they are still a no-body in their corps, making little or no ISK, and moronically saluting whenever the CEO deigns to announce they are going impoverish themself for the greater good., in this or that, attempt to define the question of 'why you should hold sov'...

So no.... this will not bring in new players... is useful for 'vets' and their alts... and is completely contradictory to the nature of the game , as it would speed up newbs getting into battleships.... and 'vet' alts shooting them down with frigates and cruisers.... as they transition form the godlike status of level 4 missions to low-sec
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-12-21 02:59:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
Sure the boosters I got when I joined were cool. I just don't think it is enough.


And exactly the kind of gamer this game doesn't need is the kind that never will think it's fast enough.

Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
You aren't helping to convince me of anything but the elitist want their special sandbox to shrink until it dies.


And you aren't making any kind of counterpoint by just calling people elitist. The game has existed for more than a decade, longer than WoW, on a small and slowly growing userbase that continued to grow when the game was even more 'elite' (read: harder and slower to get into) than it is now. What makes you think it's going to shrink until it dies? What makes you think anyone here wants that? That is an unqualified assertion that you're going to have to elaborate on, or we can dismiss this petty pejorative for what it is: a tantrum because you're not getting what you want.

Ever consider that this game might not be good for you, or that you might not be good for this game? If you want instant gratification, there are a tonne of first-person shooters and even RPGs out there that will provide it. Hell, I've been playing Fallout 4 and just using console commands to get myself all the best weapons and power armor right from the word go, not to mention giving myself instant level 50 and a few other bits and pieces. It's a more casual game, where instant gratification is an option you have.

EVE is not, and never should be.

As an aside, the guy above me made a solid point that you can't deny: any SP advantage you give to new toons will apply to new alts made by vets as well, and a vet with 2K SP is still going to wipe the floor with a newb with the same SP. Hell, I've proven a vet with less than 1 mil will wipe the floor with someone with over 5 mil SP when I duelled and beat a 2012 member of P I R A T in Amarr, my newb toon in a meta 4 fit incursus vs him in a t2 fit raptor. The trick to keeping people on board despite the waiting time of training queues is removing the illusion that skill points gives you an advantage.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#33 - 2015-12-21 03:02:06 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
I can personally attest, we're beset by the Entitled By Birth crowd.

Don't make me WAIT! I want it NOW!!


No...

Don't make me LEARN (by experience), I already know... and if you can program me to always be 0.01 in the market I'll be a trader too...
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#34 - 2015-12-21 03:04:02 UTC
It's been my general experience that SP requirements are synonymous with lazy leadership and a community that doesn't like helping its members. It's dumb too since a 150 million SP player who has spent his entire life in the game shooting mission rats probably knows less about the game than a 2 million SP player who joined pandemic horde or became a CODE. agent after getting his venture ganked.

Restrictions or behaviors that are the result of player action aren't necessarily actually related to the inherent nature of the game.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-12-21 03:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Vivias Xelnoa wrote:
If this is true why do so many corps have huge SP requirements? To my this seems to illustrate the fact these points are very important because if it was simply knowledge they could teach that.

One of the biggest reasons is spies. Spies can masquerade as new players, with fresh accounts. Eventually, successful spying will get them caught and blacklisted, and they must recycle the account and start over. This becomes prohibitively difficult if they must train 2 million SP or more just to get into the corp/alliance they want to spy on, only to get caught within a few weeks of spying.

One of the unfortunate aspects to being new is that most of your offers will come from weaker groups who are desperate for new pilots. You'll get good experience to harden you up, but it'll be with people who lose a lot of fights, and you'll be tossed around nullsec a lot. Just hang in there, with a bit of experience under your belt, you'll find yourself able to join a strong group in no time. Or perhaps you'll be the driving force that picks up your crap corp out of the ashes and makes it great--then you're a rookie in a high position of corp leadership. You'll have great offers come in from powerful corps and you might find yourself turning them down.

I'm not exaggerating, this stuff happens all the time. All you need is a will to go out there and find out what happens, and stick with it. You just need to take all those ideas about how a game should be and let them go.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#36 - 2015-12-21 03:15:18 UTC
Just for the love of crap never join a highsec group that's super eager to get new players for no apparent reason. I don't even understand why those groups want those new players.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-12-21 03:15:39 UTC
Actually, I tend to find SP requirements for any reason to be quite redundant. Anyone can buy a toon off the market and even a 150mil SP character could be purchased by a new player who has no idea what they're doing.

Additionally, out of that 150mil SP, only 5-10 mil of it MIGHT apply to any given ship in the game, capping one's 'advantages' in that ship. Anyone else who's been playing for years with their SP maxed in the same ship and a lot of PVP experience is going to wipe the floor with that person without batting an eyelid.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2015-12-21 03:16:28 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Just for the love of crap never join a highsec group that's super eager to get new players for no apparent reason. I don't even understand why those groups want those new players.


Taxes. Social recognition as a 'leader'. Cannon fodder. There are a lot of reasons.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#39 - 2015-12-21 03:59:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Also, the gap you're worried about doesn't actually exist.

For a second I thought we were talking about feminism.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#40 - 2015-12-21 04:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I've spent the last few weeks playing Fallout 4 and despite loving the game, it lost a lot of its heart and soul when the dialogue wheel was introduced and the karma system removed.
The karma system never worked and I don't mind the dumbed down dialogue system too much. What's killing me (literally) is that you can't play as a total fukwad. Half the NPCs don't even acknowledge you shooting them and the other half murder you without taking the least bit of damage. I want to kill everyone. Children, NPCs, companions and quest specific characters alike. Just like the good old days of FO3.

So lame.

As for the topic at hand. I'd have no problem with an increased skill training speed. It's kind of like in real life when you are making the same money year after year but the price of everything keeps rising. Same with this game. Replace inflation with continually adding new skills and your static wage with the never increasing skill speed.

It wouldn't hurt the game to increase it slightly, in my opinion.

For everyone, though. The nublets just got that large boost to starting SP, so they're fine.

Mr Epeen Cool