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Racial Ewar is Unbalanced.

Author
Matthew Dust
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-12-19 09:52:07 UTC
T1 Amarr EWAR (non navy/t2) Ships get bonuses to the following:
Neuts (Armageddon)
Nos (Armageddon)
Tracking Speed Disruption (Crucifier, Arbitrator)
Optimal Range Disruption (Crucifer, Arbitrator)
Missile Guidance Precision Disruption (Crucifier, Arbitrator)
Missile Guidance Range Disruption (Cruicfier, Arbitrator)

T1 Gallente (non navy/t2)
Sensor Damp Range (Maulus, Celestis)
Sensor Damp Scan Res (Maulus, Celestis)

T1 Caldari (non navy/t2)
ECM Burst (Scorpion)
ECM Target Jamming for Amarr (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin)
ECM Target Jamming for Caldari (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin)
ECM Target Jamming for Gallente (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin)
ECM Target Jamming for Minmatar (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin)

T1 Minmatar (non navy/t2)
Target Painting (Vigil, Bellicose)

I'm seeing a significant Bias, How about viable ewar for Minmatar, you know one that effects the enemies ability to shoot, you can steal one from amarr for all I care, just something other than the "most useless ewar" (paraphrase from every player in EVE) target painting. (more suited for Caldari Ships anyways)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2 - 2015-12-19 09:58:07 UTC
Note how if you actually create one line for each ewar rather than splitting them out into the maximum number of aspects they can affect you end up with one line per race.
With Neuts & NOS being both the same category and not ewar.

I.E. Stop trying to find a bias that doesn't exist.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3 - 2015-12-19 10:06:23 UTC
First... If you have a legitimate point, you don't have to fluff your argument. Try this:

Amarr:
Weapon Disruption
Cap Warfare

Gallente:
Sensor Damps

Caldari:
Ewar

Minmitar:
Target Painting


Now, that's a bit more manageable, and still shows the bias. Amarr get 2, everyone else gets one.

The outliers are cap warfare, since not everyone uses Cap to fire their weapons, and Target Painting which negatively impacts enemies defense instead of offense.

Amarr were always a little Odd with that, as Weapon Disruption used to just be tracking disruption, and so didn't affect all weapons. It seem appropriate that they would have a backup, except Cap Warfare is tremendously powerful in it's own right as it affects much more than just the enemies offense in a very brutal fashion, and yet despite it's power it also does not work against missiles or drones.

I could see transitioning Target Painting as a partner to Weapon Disruption, and maybe sharing it between Amarr and Minmatar
Iain Cariaba
#4 - 2015-12-19 10:12:01 UTC
Matthew Dust wrote:
T1 Amarr EWAR (non navy/t2) Ships get bonuses to the following:
Neuts (Armageddon)
Nos (Armageddon)
Tracking Speed Disruption (Crucifier, Arbitrator)
Optimal Range Disruption (Crucifer, Arbitrator)
Missile Guidance Precision Disruption (Crucifier, Arbitrator)
Missile Guidance Range Disruption (Cruicfier, Arbitrator)

T1 Gallente (non navy/t2)
Sensor Damp Range (Maulus, Celestis)
Sensor Damp Scan Res (Maulus, Celestis)

T1 Caldari (non navy/t2)
ECM Burst (Scorpion)
ECM Target Jamming for Amarr (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin)
ECM Target Jamming for Caldari (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin)
ECM Target Jamming for Gallente (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin)
ECM Target Jamming for Minmatar (Scorpion, Blackbird, Griffin)

T1 Minmatar (non navy/t2)
Target Painting (Vigil, Bellicose)

I'm seeing a significant Bias, How about viable ewar for Minmatar, you know one that effects the enemies ability to shoot, you can steal one from amarr for all I care, just something other than the "most useless ewar" (paraphrase from every player in EVE) target painting. (more suited for Caldari Ships anyways)

Nope.

Amarr - Weapon disruption
Gallente - Sensor Dampening
Caldari - Jamming
Minmatar - Target Painting

Besides, target painting is a very, very nice form of ewar. Makes your target appear bigger and easier to hit. Target paiting is the only form of ewar that will actually let you apply more damage to your target, where the other 3 forms effect your target's ability to apply damage.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5 - 2015-12-19 10:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
To be fair, Cap Warfare is usually considered to be Ewar, along with other more universal forms of aggression like webs and points.
Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#6 - 2015-12-19 10:17:33 UTC
Ah, but you see, simply looking to balance each faction's access to ewar in a vacuum would be illogical.

Amarr may have the most access to ewar, but they pay for it in that their ships tend to be unagile with cap heavy, moderately damaging, poor tracking weapons with high fitting costs.

Gallente's relative lack of ewar is made up for by their excellent damage, speed, and brawling capabilities.

Minmatar's ewar actually widens the gap between their ships' sig radii (some of the lowest in the game) and their painted targets.

I'm not a caldari flier, so I don't know much about ecm other than being jammed is brutal.

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-12-19 10:21:54 UTC
Rather:


Amarr:
Weapon Disruption
Cap Warfare

Gallente:
Sensor Damps
Long Scrams

Caldari:
ECM

Minmitar:
Target Painting
Long Webs


It is regrettable Caldari have only 1 EWar, but it is generally understood it is the most feared form of EWar. Take into account range dictation and cap warfare are not actually electronic warfare, and it's looking acceptable to me.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#8 - 2015-12-19 10:22:16 UTC
Before Tracking Disruption was Weapon Disruption I would see no point in this.

Now that weapon disruption works on turrets and missiles... Seems like that's all they would need.

Cap Warfare is terrifying for everyone but the Caldari, and even they can't ignore it completely.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#9 - 2015-12-19 11:24:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
How about you try this

Caldari:
Ecm
Ecm burst

Amarr:
TD
Neuts/nos

Minmatar:
Webs
Painters

Gallente:
Damps
Point/scram range

Does it still look broken?
OH WAIT...

They all have 2.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Matthew Dust
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2015-12-19 13:22:27 UTC
Rather than get emotional and knitpick your terrible replies, When is the last time you said to your FC
"Don't worry, I got him target painted."
or "FC I'm target painted!"

Also I'm sorry that I pointed out that 2 races have battleships dedicated to EWAR and that every EWAR provides options, except Minmatar.
-
Those of you who want to mention Tech2 ships, well there's a difference between scrams and points, it is warp disruption, but both very different.
Some of you forgot the new missile guidance disruption.
-

Web range is great, and would like to see that as Minmatar's only form of Ewar, and the t2 ships could get web effectiveness.
-

Cry all you want, the bottom line is, t1 min ewar got a huge shaft, because target painters suck super bad and everyone in EVE knows it. You would sooner use a tracking computer/enhancers/rigs (missiles and turrets) than you would a target painter.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#11 - 2015-12-19 13:36:59 UTC
I could see giving the typhoon a TP bonus to fit in with its missiles and for TPs get get a buff overall, but that's about it.

Caldari and Amarr have their same bonuses at T1 and T2, but gallente and Minmatar, being the fast skirmishers gain an extra range-dictation bonus at T2. It keeps them grouped together nicely, while still remaining different.

Same sort of thing applies to the logi really. The amarr and caldari have cap bonuses with no bonus to other assistance modules, whereas Gallente and Minmatar logi have the ability to run solo and use tracking links.

The Drake is a Lie

Matthew Dust
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-12-19 13:49:15 UTC
IMO There's no need for target painters at all, dealing with small signature radius's is dealt with by appropriate weapon classes, and tracking/missile guidance computers/enhancers/rigs,

If they got a significant buff that made battleships with torps hit cruisers/dessies for more dps than maybe they'd be better. Target painters at their current level are inferior to tracking/missile guidance computers/enhancers/rigs
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-12-19 14:39:46 UTC
Target Painters actually perform better than tracking computers, and at longer range than webs, so there's that. They also help your fleet and not just yourself.

The trouble is in people's understanding of turret tracking. It's a multiplication, where sigradius/weapon sig is an equally valid strategy to improve your tracking. Most peeps tend to focus on "getting rid of speed" (ergo: webs) although blowing up their sigradius is as far as the game engine is concerned identically the same thing.

This not to say "learn to use them", but .... yeah. Under-appreciated. People won't go all "FC I'm painted" but they will be like "LOGI FAILED I GOT P*WNED!!". Perception...
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-12-19 15:06:05 UTC
I happen to like my target painter thank you very much. It very useful for tracking another fast moving ship when I'm in a fast moving ship of my own.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius

"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#15 - 2015-12-19 15:12:33 UTC
If you are in a battlecruiser fighting a torpedo ship, you should be very concerned when you get target painted.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Iain Cariaba
#16 - 2015-12-19 15:32:36 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
If you are in a battlecruiser fighting a torpedo ship, you should be very concerned when you get target painted.

Smart bomber pilots fit painters, because painters make their targets big enough for torps to hit.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#17 - 2015-12-19 16:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
TP's arent bad. But there isnt much reason to bring more than 1 or 2.

Considering they amplify the damage of any and all weapons fired at the painted target and work at 10x the range of webs, they are widely applicable and not at all useless.

Perhaps your problem is that you are thinking of this purely from a solo perspective.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Lugh Crow-Slave
#18 - 2015-12-19 16:30:34 UTC
The people who think target painters are weak don't understand when/how to use them
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#19 - 2015-12-19 17:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
The people who think target painters are weak don't understand when/how to use them

https://zkillboard.com/kill/46397422/ I agree with you.

Painting something to 5-8 times their size is just as strong as 90% webs. That bellicose had 4 painters.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Arla Sarain
#20 - 2015-12-19 18:12:30 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:

The trouble is in people's understanding of turret tracking. It's a multiplication, where sigradius/weapon sig is an equally valid strategy to improve your tracking. Most peeps tend to focus on "getting rid of speed" (ergo: webs) although blowing up their sigradius is as far as the game engine is concerned identically the same thing.


Webs factor in a difference of 2.5x whilst even bonused painters overheated with links cap out at +94% or something.

Only redeeming quality of TPs is range.

I've also tried both TPs and webs on certain hulls (rather than double webs - to let my target pick up speed and increase transversal), and the benefit of the TP was minimal and hardly worth the slot investment.
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