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Is anything _significantly_ faster than my Golem for L4 isk-making?
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Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#41 - 2015-12-17 09:40:31 UTC
The Bigpuns wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
You use Faction ammo, especially for blitzing. Hail will get you just under 1500 dps without implants.

What's the actual DPS @60km though?

Dunno, has never come up.


That's not quite true, we had a big discussion in a thread a while ago where you were making some frankly outrageous claims on the machs behalf. Don't get me wrong, it's still the best way to make money, but with ac's, dps at 60-70 km is about half, and that's with a stationary target, and then you probably have to take out your drones damage too...

It doesn't come up. I use hail when running Pirate Invasion. when I land in the site I use the MWD to fly over to where the 6 BS spawn. as soon as they spawn I am within 20-30km. This is the perfect kill distance when it comes to moving targets when using ACs (1/4-1/3 into falloff in case you weren't aware) At that distance I do around 90% of my listed DPS. I can also one shot the Scramming Frigates as they burn towards me, something a cruise or even RHM ship can not do.

And yes, I do also use the drones. I figure I'm applying around 1300 dps into the primary and secondary resist holes of the Angel rats. That's of course not counting any penetrating/smashing/wrecking hits, of course.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#42 - 2015-12-17 10:25:36 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
How often on average would you say the 60 mill Zor implants drops in Zazzmatazz and Damsel?

Often enough that it pays to run the missions. If it drops it's an instant 65m ISK payday...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-12-17 23:44:12 UTC
In my experience, the Golem performs the best, and is the most consistent.

Here is what I use...

[Golem, test]
Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Large Micro Jump Drive
Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Small Tractor Beam II
Bastion Module I

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II

Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Mobile Tractor Unit x1
Mobile Tractor Unit x1
Mobile Tractor Unit x1
Mobile Tractor Unit x1
Mobile Tractor Unit x1
Mobile Tractor Unit x1


With this, I use
CM-605
MP-705
GP-805
TN-905
RL-1005

With this (and my skills) I get 1014 dps out to and past max targeting range.

Now, you must consider my mindset with this design

Only boost shields when you reach 80% shields remaining when in bastion, 90% when out of bastion.
This will boost you back to 100%.
I typically take on full room aggro, then launch drones. instead of telling my drones to attack, I set the to aggressive and fire at a frigate just once. Your drones will then start engaging all frigs.
I'll use fury to burn down BSs, BCs, and destroyers, then swap to precision for cruisers and frigs.
For some reason, precision seems to work better against most cruisers even with the application modules and implants.

I was using target painters, but since MGCs don't have optimal/falloff, you get better application at range, as well as reducing the time it takes to target swap.
Even with the 10% per level bonus for TPs on the Golem, they're still not in a good place.

The small tractor is for mission loot.
The cap booster is only there for when I'm not paying attention and accidentally leave my shield booster on. If you're more attentive than me, this shouldn't be a problem.

The MJD is optional, but I'd advise against a MWD as you lose 20% cap just by fitting it.

The method I use for salvage/loot is
Drop and Bookmark a MTU as soon as I enter a room and every room, burn through the mission, turn in the mission, then you can warp directly to your BMs with a Noctis without having to go through gates.
Alternately, you can carry a mobile depot and refit your Golem to salvage, but the limited tractor range kinda hurts.
However, even if using MTUs in conjunction with the Golem, coming back in the Noctis is STILL faster.

As far as the speed to room clear, the Golem is probably the most CONSISTENT therefore the fastest.
This is due to damage selection (I use eve-survival.org to know what to bring) and having max damage at all locking ranges.
The consistent damage, same damage at any range, and damage selection make up for the delays application suffered by missiles.


Now, people have mentioned other ships that have higher damage, faster, and many other positive effects.

However, they suffer from other issues
falloff/optimal for all turrets - reducing ranged dps
Non-optimal damage type - reducing DPS against off-damage NPCs
Reduced damage for damage selection - Projectiles only get damage selection when using t1 ammo, thus reduced dps
Shorter range - requiring you go to the targets or wait for them to come to you
Drones have to travel - drones have a delayed damage application as well, and are slower than missiles
Dual damage - As an example, the Rattlesnake uses missiles and drones, thus one or both won't be fully optimized, thus reducing application
Inconsistent application - Missiles will always hit for the same damage while turrets and drones are inconsistent
Reduced tank - Golem is a beefy ship
Ewar weakness - Bastion gives in ewar invulnerability which is especially helpful against guristas and serpentis


I guess what I'm getting at is that there really isn't a "better" ship, but really only equivalent ships, thus it boils down to trade-offs.
Now, the one negative aspect you get with missile boats over other ships is increased ammunition costs.
Missiles aren't cheap so likely any increased efficiency you get with other hulls is mitigated by having to buy the missiles.
However, the Golem is the most cost efficient missile boat as it only uses 4 launchers.. Even the Rattlesnake uses 5, thus 20% higher expenses.


If you really want to see something entertaining, take this Golem fit and use fof missiles.
Basically perfect application, no targeting delay, no target swap delay, no range limitation, quite cheap especially if you produce them yourself even when buying the materials required directly from the market, and is an easy button..
You may occassionally have to launch drones to draw aggro when you first come into a room then pull them back in, but once you've aggroed a single target your fofs will engage any target even if they're not aggroed.
Also, fof missiles seem to not draw aggro on separate groups of NPCs. IE, i engage group 1 of 5, the other groups won't aggro. If your missiles swap to another group before you have to reload, that group still won't aggro until you reload and re-engage.
You only seem to have problems with this when they NPCs are orbiting as the fofs will hit the nearest NPC, thus causing your fofs to target swap.
Still, it's really relaxing, lol.

(sorry for the long post)
Altair Taurus
#44 - 2015-12-18 00:06:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
Tomorrow I am back to missioning! First I'll try Machariel a bit against Guristas and later I'll move it to Minmatar space.

Joe Risalo: Honesty I cannot see advertised by you Golem's advantages over Rattlesnake. I have the same implant set plug in my jump clone flying Rattle. I run missions against Guristas. Rattlesnake melts them at 100 km with Furies and Wardens - excellent DPS, range and ideal damage type, very rare NPC jamming, complete safety with MJD. I can fit scripted MGC II, SeBo II and ECCM if needed. Supposedly hard The Assault mission is a piece of cake to me! No point to add 75 days to my training queue to get vessel similar to Rattlesnake. In fact much simpler is to purchase buffed Barghest.


Please stop this pathetic discussion about "2k DPS Mach" we waged back in September... What?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-12-18 00:19:35 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
Tomorrow I am back to missioning! First I'll try Machariel a bit against Guristas and later I'll move it to Minmatar space.

Joe Risalo: Honesty I cannot see advertised by you Golem's advantages over Rattlesnake. I have the same implant set in my jump clone flying Rattle, I run missions against Guristas. Rattlesnake melts them at 100 km with Furies and Wardens - excellent DPS, range and ideal damage type, residual NPC jamming, complete safety with MJD. I can fit scripted MGC II, SeBo II and ECCM if needed. Supposedly hard The Assault mission is a piece of cake to me!


Yes, but that is a single NPC type.
Golem retains the same effectiveness against all NPC types.
I can typically blap even the tankiest lvl 4 NPC in no more than 5 volleys, but it's typically less.
Some go down in two volleys.
I can one volleys BCs and destroyers, and precision will one shot most frigs and some cruisers.

Plus, I never have to change my fit, only my Ammo.

Though, I will also note that in playing with the rattlesnake on the test server (not going to buy it if I don't like it) it has an insanely slow RoF on launchers. At least, from what I'm used to with the Golem.

Again though, it's really a matter of personal preference.
I really don't think there's a noticably faster BS when it come to full clears. The pirate, Marauders, and a couple T1's/faction are roughly the same as the Golem.
The only time there are noticably faster ships is when blitzing.
Altair Taurus
#46 - 2015-12-18 00:26:29 UTC
Now I run missions only in Caldari space so I cannot comment Rattle vs Golem against other pirate factions. Anyway Rattlesnake has stupidly high raw DPS output at very long range. Gosh! If I trained all relevant skills to V and max-pimped my Rattle I could put almost 1500 DPS at 100 km! That's insane!!! That's why CCP thought about nerfing it altogether with Gila and Worm but at least for time being they decided not to do so.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2015-12-18 00:31:04 UTC
Damage application is the downside of the rattler (that and grid issues). But yeah the DPS is high enough that losing up to a third over time is neither here nor there.
Altair Taurus
#48 - 2015-12-18 00:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
What do you think about present Barghest in level 4 missions?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-12-18 01:24:04 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
What do you think about present Barghest in level 4 missions?


Barghest has speed and range, however, my on paper the tank and everything else is a bit lackluster.

It's one of those that is probably great for blitzing, but it's more of a PVP ship than PVE.
Also, (again this is all on paper not practice) it doesn't get much DPS..
It struggles to get equal to the Golem with more launchers, and will likely suffer on tank if you try to get it to match damage and application.

Again though, this is all on paper and EFT warrioring, thus should be taken with a grain of salt.
Having said that, I don't think I've ever seen any being used.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#50 - 2015-12-18 01:52:58 UTC
Altair Taurus wrote:
Now I run missions only in Caldari space so I cannot comment Rattle vs Golem against other pirate factions. Anyway Rattlesnake has stupidly high raw DPS output at very long range. Gosh! If I trained all relevant skills to V and max-pimped my Rattle I could put almost 1500 DPS at 100 km! That's insane!!! That's why CCP thought about nerfing it altogether with Gila and Worm but at least for time being they decided not to do so.

The Rattlesnake is great on paper - but it has zero damage application bonuses. With full V skills and no implants, a cruise-sentry setup will see a raw DPS of 1419-1524 DPS before things like falloff, target signature or velocity come into play. Since missiles are thermal or kinetic only, you're going to automatically lose 20% of your missile DPS against Drones, Sansha, Blood and Angels. So the 831 missile DPS is actually closer to 665 DPS - and this is before you attempt to apply it. You'll need a minimum of 2 rigors/flares to get 100% damage application against battleships and battlecruisers, and you'll need to switch-out to Precision for anything smaller (along with a target painter).

With a pair of omni links you'll be able to hit out to 80km, but Curators and Gardes will lose half their DPS in the process. Wardens are the only drones to retain their DPS past 100km, but they have the worst tracking and frequently miss. So let's recap:

• Guristas, EoM, Mordus, Serpentis: 1419 DPS @100km
• Angels: 1274 DPS @60km | 1121 DPS @100km
• Drones, Blood, Sansha: 1316 DPS @70km | 990 DPS @90km
• Mercenaries: 1524 DPS @30km | 1177 DPS @80km

This also assumes missiles apply full damage, so range drops 25km and DPS 30% when you swap out to Precision. Now you can drop to T2 damage modules instead of Faction and that will save you quite a bit, but you'll lose another 10% DPS straight off the top.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#51 - 2015-12-18 01:59:09 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Barghest has speed and range, however, my on paper the tank and everything else is a bit lackluster.

It's one of those that is probably great for blitzing, but it's more of a PVP ship than PVE.
Also, (again this is all on paper not practice) it doesn't get much DPS..
It struggles to get equal to the Golem with more launchers, and will likely suffer on tank if you try to get it to match damage and application.

Again though, this is all on paper and EFT warrioring, thus should be taken with a grain of salt.
Having said that, I don't think I've ever seen any being used.

The Barghest rocks PvE. You're looking at 1064 DPS before implants and drones, and a T2 flare basically duplicates the damage application of the Barghest. With the Frost change it uses 17% less ammunition as well. It will easily push past 1300 applied DPS well out past 150km if so desired.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-12-18 02:05:26 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Altair Taurus wrote:
Now I run missions only in Caldari space so I cannot comment Rattle vs Golem against other pirate factions. Anyway Rattlesnake has stupidly high raw DPS output at very long range. Gosh! If I trained all relevant skills to V and max-pimped my Rattle I could put almost 1500 DPS at 100 km! That's insane!!! That's why CCP thought about nerfing it altogether with Gila and Worm but at least for time being they decided not to do so.

The Rattlesnake is great on paper - but it has zero damage application bonuses. With full V skills and no implants, a cruise-sentry setup will see a raw DPS of 1419-1524 DPS before things like falloff, target signature or velocity come into play. Since missiles are thermal or kinetic only, you're going to automatically lose 20% of your missile DPS against Drones, Sansha, Blood and Angels. So the 831 missile DPS is actually closer to 665 DPS - and this is before you attempt to apply it. You'll need a minimum of 2 rigors/flares to get 100% damage application against battleships and battlecruisers, and you'll need to switch-out to Precision for anything smaller (along with a target painter).

With a pair of omni links you'll be able to hit out to 80km, but Curators and Gardes will lose half their DPS in the process. Wardens are the only drones to retain their DPS past 100km, but they have the worst tracking and frequently miss. So let's recap:

• Guristas, EoM, Mordus, Serpentis: 1419 DPS @100km
• Angels: 1274 DPS @60km | 1121 DPS @100km
• Drones, Blood, Sansha: 1316 DPS @70km | 990 DPS @90km
• Mercenaries: 1524 DPS @30km | 1177 DPS @80km

This also assumes missiles apply full damage, so range drops 25km and DPS 30% when you swap out to Precision. Now you can drop to T2 damage modules instead of Faction and that will save you quite a bit, but you'll lose another 10% DPS straight off the top.


I'm assuming that what this means is you're getting less DPS than a Golem after application is factored in.
The only way to counter this would be to go full damage mods in the lows, and full application everywhere else.

As I said earlier though, you must also factor that the Golem only uses 4 launchers, thus less cost per volley, and is bonuses to all damage types, thus less cost when the rattlesnake would be shooting off-damage.

Again though, I wouldn't say the Golem is faster than the rattler, but they're at least on par.
.. But, your question was on efficiency, not speed.
Thus the Golem is more cost efficient in the long run, even though the rattlesnake is significantly faster.
You could go with a pure drone rattlesnake (which I plan on doing at some point just for lulz) but only get under 800 DPS max skills.
Also, drones are a crap ton more skill intensive.

That said, you should also not listen to me, or anyone else here. Because in the end, it's all about what you enjoy flying and it will likely change several times due to boredom on your current ship.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2015-12-18 02:08:59 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Barghest has speed and range, however, my on paper the tank and everything else is a bit lackluster.

It's one of those that is probably great for blitzing, but it's more of a PVP ship than PVE.
Also, (again this is all on paper not practice) it doesn't get much DPS..
It struggles to get equal to the Golem with more launchers, and will likely suffer on tank if you try to get it to match damage and application.

Again though, this is all on paper and EFT warrioring, thus should be taken with a grain of salt.
Having said that, I don't think I've ever seen any being used.

The Barghest rocks PvE. You're looking at 1064 DPS before implants and drones, and a T2 flare basically duplicates the damage application of the Barghest. With the Frost change it uses 17% less ammunition as well. It will easily push past 1300 applied DPS well out past 150km if so desired.


What is this Frost change you speak of?

Also, is that torp or cruise fitted and how much fitting space do you have left over for tank?

Regardless, I'm still willing to bet that the Golem is more efficient at full clears while the Barghest is better at blitzing.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#54 - 2015-12-18 02:28:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Joe Risalo wrote:
What is this Frost change you speak of?
Also, is that torp or cruise fitted and how much fitting space do you have left over for tank?
Regardless, I'm still willing to bet that the Golem is more efficient at full clears while the Barghest is better at blitzing.

-1 launcher, 50% damage bonus (which works out to +3% DPS/-17% ammo consumption) and 2 utility highs. Also easier to fit an armor tank or torpedo setup. The numbers I used was cruise-fit. If you run rigors/flares and a single target painter it leaves you with 4 mids and 2 lows for tank and a MWD. Alternately you can run a pair of missile guidance enhancers as well.

Full clears the Golem will probably come out on top simply due to its EW immunity and MJD/tractor ability to salvage any mission objectives. The Barghest definitely shines in a PvP role although it's so bloody expensive I'm reluctant to venture outside of high-sec with it.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2015-12-18 04:50:44 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
What is this Frost change you speak of?
Also, is that torp or cruise fitted and how much fitting space do you have left over for tank?
Regardless, I'm still willing to bet that the Golem is more efficient at full clears while the Barghest is better at blitzing.

-1 launcher, 50% damage bonus (which works out to +3% DPS/-17% ammo consumption) and 2 utility highs. Also easier to fit an armor tank or torpedo setup. The numbers I used was cruise-fit. If you run rigors/flares and a single target painter it leaves you with 4 mids and 2 lows for tank and a MWD. Alternately you can run a pair of missile guidance enhancers as well.

Full clears the Golem will probably come out on top simply due to its EW immunity and MJD/tractor ability to salvage any mission objectives. The Barghest definitely shines in a PvP role although it's so bloody expensive I'm reluctant to venture outside of high-sec with it.


Dude, I didn't realize they just rebalanced the Barghest, nice!!
That thing used to have crap DPS.
Granted, not it only pulls out as muc, maybe slightly more than a Golem, but it's a lot better ship now just playing with it on EFT.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#56 - 2015-12-18 04:56:18 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
That thing used to have crap DPS. Granted, not it only pulls out as much, maybe slightly more than a Golem, but it's a lot better ship now just playing with it on EFT.

The Barghest does 12.5% more damage than the Golem. It's still not as efficient in terms of ammo usage, but it's an improvement nonetheless. As with missiles, applying it is the tricky part...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-12-18 05:05:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
That thing used to have crap DPS. Granted, not it only pulls out as much, maybe slightly more than a Golem, but it's a lot better ship now just playing with it on EFT.

The Barghest does 12.5% more damage than the Golem. It's still not as efficient in terms of ammo usage, but it's an improvement nonetheless. As with missiles, applying it is the tricky part...


Ehh.. I don't think it's 12.5% but I may be wrong...

On my golem I'm pulling out only slightly less with cruise or torps.
Like 10-50 DPS less depending on if I use torps or cruise (paper dps).
At most we're talking maybe 80 DPS.



Edit... Man, torps have crappy range.... At least the Barghest gets the massive velocity bonus to missiles though.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#58 - 2015-12-18 05:45:27 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
On my golem I'm pulling out only slightly less with cruise or torps.
Like 10-50 DPS less depending on if I use torps or cruise (paper dps).
At most we're talking maybe 80 DPS.

Edit... Man, torps have crappy range.... At least the Barghest gets the massive velocity bonus to missiles though.

The Barghest has 9 effective launchers vs. 8 effective launchers for the Golem.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#59 - 2015-12-18 14:55:25 UTC
I think I will have to try the Vargur with Artys.

[Vargur, arty]

Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Damage Control II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Booster
Large Micro Jump Drive
Large Shield Extender II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Bastion Module I
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5


Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Surgical Strike SS-905
Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Large Projectile Turret LP-1005

The Volley DPS is 14000 with my skills. That should blap BS in 2 volleys, and anything smaller in 1.
Altair Taurus
#60 - 2015-12-18 16:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
Reload time? Optimal range?