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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

First post First post
Author
Mag's
Azn Empire
#4721 - 2015-12-17 19:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Oh, I see. We are back to the idea that the camper is harmless, so it's ok he is invulnerable. I apologize for mistaking the direction of the dishonesty in your argument.

There's actually two ways that is ridiculous. The first being the notion he is harmless, since he isn't. When he can no longer fit any modules of an offensive sort at all (weapons, ewar, cyno), unable to gather Intel for friends, and unable to be used as a warp in... Then he is harmless. Just because he can't target anything right that moment does not make him harmless.

However, being harmless does not provide any defense in EvE. If it did then Pods and shuttles would be indestructible, and industrials, transports and most miners would be stronger than titans.

His immunity isn't excused simply because he isn't shooting right that second. Even if he could not shoot at all, ever, it would not excuse the 100% safety granted by the cloak. Not even if he were in fact helpless as a pod. 100% safety is not balanced in any way on the ship scale. For that you need a structure.
You seem to have some sort of issue with making up words, that I didn't say. Then build an argument around it and claim me to be dishonest. It's hilarious.

Let me try to put it in an even easier way, so you understand.

Your premise is Cloaked = 100% Immunity. But you miss out that while this is the case, so is everyone from him.
So what you should say is Cloaked = 100% two way immunity.

Now back to word invention. Let's see what you come up with next. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4722 - 2015-12-17 19:21:00 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
"I want to develop a MMOG. I know, I will introduce things on a broad scale that makes it look like no one is playing the game"

Sounds like a plan Big smile


Other than the client saying, X number of players are logged in. Or EVE-Mon saying X number of players are logged in. Or the in game map, showing number of pilots in system with a 30 minute lag.

Maybe you should think a bit before hitting 'POST'. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4723 - 2015-12-17 19:25:16 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Oh, I see. We are back to the idea that the camper is harmless, so it's ok he is invulnerable. I apologize for mistaking the direction of the dishonesty in your argument.

There's actually two ways that is ridiculous. The first being the notion he is harmless, since he isn't. When he can no longer fit any modules of an offensive sort at all (weapons, ewar, cyno), unable to gather Intel for friends, and unable to be used as a warp in... Then he is harmless. Just because he can't target anything right that moment does not make him harmless.

However, being harmless does not provide any defense in EvE. If it did then Pods and shuttles would be indestructible, and industrials, transports and most miners would be stronger than titans.

His immunity isn't excused simply because he isn't shooting right that second. Even if he could not shoot at all, ever, it would not excuse the 100% safety granted by the cloak. Not even if he were in fact helpless as a pod. 100% safety is not balanced in any way on the ship scale. For that you need a structure.
You seem to have some sort of issue with making up words, that I didn't say. Then build an argument around it and claim me to be dishonest. It's hilarious.

Let me try to put it in an even easier way, so you understand.

Your premiss is Cloaked = 100% Immunity. But you miss out that while this is the case, so is everyone from him.
So what you should say is Cloaked = 100% two way immunity.

Now back to word invention. Let's see what you come up with next. Big smile


Your statement is false. No one is immune to him.

He can still act in a variety of tactical roles. He is still projecting threat and provoking a defensive response to the detriment of the locals. He can still set up his ambush and attack at any time, or act as a bridge for his friends to attack.

If I could get on grid and prepare to whack you the instant you did anything but sit there, then we would be talking about two way immunity. That's not what's is happening though. Cloaking curtails your options, but completelly makes you immune to retaliation.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4724 - 2015-12-17 19:29:02 UTC
Teckos
Thats the solution. Instead of permanently visible cues of EvE vitality, we will make it only awkwardly available on occasion.

I am sure the Devs are going to run with that one.

Heh, the echo chamber really has you believing the craziest stuff.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4725 - 2015-12-17 19:37:25 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Teckos
Thats the solution. Instead of permanently visible cues of EvE vitality, we will make it only awkwardly available on occasion.

I am sure the Devs are going to run with that one.

Heh, the echo chamber really has you believing the craziest stuff.


Maybe you missed this part,

Quote:
Granted, if I did come back and do a d-scan and see you I could decide to hunt you down and try to kill you. So the above scenario is not balanced...but it does highlight how AFK cloaking depends critically on local.


In other words, the scenario I described is not balanced from an overall game standpoint, but it does indeed show how local is very much connected to AFK cloaking....that was the intent of the post. Not to suggest a sweeping change for the game as a whole.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4726 - 2015-12-17 19:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
I was speaking purely from a marketing perspective. The power of interdisciplinary teams. Some poor sod is probably forced to read the manure we have been producing here even. But there is no way the marketing guy/gal on the team is going to let the removing local impact slip through the cracks.

Removing local underlines the general sentiment that the number of EvE players is decreasing. That sentiment has to change first for local removal to be even imaginably possible.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Mag's
Azn Empire
#4727 - 2015-12-17 19:50:52 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Your statement is false. No one is immune to him.

He can still act in a variety of tactical roles. He is still projecting threat and provoking a defensive response to the detriment of the locals. He can still set up his ambush and attack at any time, or act as a bridge for his friends to attack.

If I could get on grid and prepare to whack you the instant you did anything but sit there, then we would be talking about two way immunity. That's not what's is happening though. Cloaking curtails your options, but completelly makes you immune to retaliation.
They are immune to him whilst cloaked. Which was fine for you when you thought it only applied one way. But it quite obviously doesn't.

He is still projecting a threat, you say? Well whilst he is cloaked and AFK, which mechanic is he using to project this threat you talk of? It sounds like something we should include in any changes tbh.

You also seemed to have missed the name of the module, you have issues with. It kinda points to why it can do, what it does.
Covert Op Cloak. It's roles is sneaking up on peeps. Yea I know, weird right. The Elephant in the room.

Oh and what's stopping you from trying to whack him when he does decloak? Was it the not refitting, because of your ISK p/h?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4728 - 2015-12-17 19:53:35 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Your statement is false. No one is immune to him.

He can still act in a variety of tactical roles. He is still projecting threat and provoking a defensive response to the detriment of the locals. He can still set up his ambush and attack at any time, or act as a bridge for his friends to attack.

If I could get on grid and prepare to whack you the instant you did anything but sit there, then we would be talking about two way immunity. That's not what's is happening though. Cloaking curtails your options, but completelly makes you immune to retaliation.


You are immune to direct attack. That is what Mag's has been saying. It is you who are pretending otherwise.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4729 - 2015-12-17 19:55:02 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
I was speaking purely from a marketing perspective. The power of interdisciplinary teams. Some poor sod is probably forced to read the manure we have been producing here even. But there is no way the marketing guy/gal on the team is going to let the removing local impact slip through the cracks.

Removing local underlines the general sentiment that the number of EvE players is decreasing. That sentiment has to change first for local removal to be even imaginably possible.


Putting a partial thought into a post and then expecting those you are interacting with to somehow divine your intent is...dishonest, stupid, pick your own adjective?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4730 - 2015-12-17 20:13:34 UTC
Context is king. You had already read the posts presenting why no local is the world's stupidest marketing idea.

Having the attention span of a gold fish is dishonest, stupid, pick your own adjective?

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4731 - 2015-12-17 20:22:59 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Context is king. You had already read the posts presenting why no local is the world's stupidest marketing idea.

Having the attention span of a gold fish is dishonest, stupid, pick your own adjective?


No, I've read your assertions, but actual reasons...nope.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4732 - 2015-12-17 21:12:47 UTC
Well, that would follow from having the attention span of a guppy.

Local makes Eve seem alive
Developers do not want Eve to seem dead
Therefore, local stays.

Succinct* enough for you to grasp in whatever seconds are available?

* Characterized by clear, precise expression in few words; concise and terse (websters)

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#4733 - 2015-12-17 21:25:49 UTC
So in addition to just making stuff up, ignoring other people when it doesn't suit, having no firm grasp of game mechanics we can now add personal attacks to your list of accolades?

/slow_clap
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4734 - 2015-12-17 21:28:39 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Well, that would follow from having the attention span of a guppy.

Local makes Eve seem alive
Developers do not want Eve to seem dead
Therefore, local stays.

Succinct* enough for you to grasp in whatever seconds are available?

* Characterized by clear, precise expression in few words; concise and terse (websters)


Now I think you are a liar. You never presented anything remotely like this before. This is brand new. There is literally no link to an older post (say from yesterday or before that) you can present.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#4735 - 2015-12-17 21:30:32 UTC
Jerghul wrote:


Local makes Eve seem alive
Developers do not want Eve to seem dead
Therefore, local stays.



So local-free wormholes must seem "dead" then, yes? Confirm/deny?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#4736 - 2015-12-17 21:49:36 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Your statement is false. No one is immune to him.

He can still act in a variety of tactical roles. He is still projecting threat and provoking a defensive response to the detriment of the locals. He can still set up his ambush and attack at any time, or act as a bridge for his friends to attack.

If I could get on grid and prepare to whack you the instant you did anything but sit there, then we would be talking about two way immunity. That's not what's is happening though. Cloaking curtails your options, but completelly makes you immune to retaliation.
They are immune to him whilst cloaked. Which was fine for you when you thought it only applied one way. But it quite obviously doesn't.


Huh? I never claimed any invulnerability for anyone other than the cloaker. That does only go one way. No one is immune to him, however. They remain vulnerable to being hunted, and he may act upon them at any time he choses. Not all of those ways include direct action, or a target lock.

Mag's wrote:
He is still projecting a threat, you say? Well whilst he is cloaked and AFK, which mechanic is he using to project this threat you talk of? It sounds like something we should include in any changes tbh.

Nice dodge, but no dice. I know you want to conflate local and intel into this, but it's a completely separate issue of its own, with many balance considerations beyond just cloaking.

Even so, I have suggested a means to alleviate the one thing not in your favor there--- allowing gate cloaks to keep you out of local until they drop. So you can load grid and be in system before people start reacting. So... you know... yay compromise.

Mag's wrote:
You also seemed to have missed the name of the module, you have issues with. It kinda points to why it can do, what it does.
Covert Op Cloak. It's roles is sneaking up on peeps. Yea I know, weird right. The Elephant in the room.

Oh and what's stopping you from trying to whack him when he does decloak? Was it the not refitting, because of your ISK p/h?



No, I get it. I'm not asking to be able to just see them on the overview and fly up. However, there's a lot of room between 100% safe and flying in the clear.

What's stopping me is that he can't be found against his will in any way. The issue is the immunity to non-consent for him, while he inflicts detrimental effects on me, and is free to hunt me in any way he chooses while my only options are to abandon the space or tolerate him.

How about we spread the non-consent to both sides of the equation with a balanced stealth mechanic instead of a magic I Win button.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4737 - 2015-12-17 22:02:42 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:

No, I get it. I'm not asking to be able to just see them on the overview and fly up. However, there's a lot of room between 100% safe and flying in the clear.


Actually ..... I see you haven't commented on my previous post (about non-covops cloaks) ...... because the room between 100% safe and flying in the clear, well... that's exactly what I'm struggling with: IS there a lot of room? Build one (1) vulnerability into the cloaking mechanism and all non-covops are pretty much hosed.

I know it's tedious because grrr cloaks and all; but honestly, it's delicate. I'm not sure if there a lot of manoevering space in-between. Even tampering with the Holy Local Chat as a compromise may tempt cloakers into giving up some invulnerability, but ironically, it's not the covert cloaks that are going to be screwed. It's the regular ones -- the ones that don't pose a threat and are purely used in defensive capacity.

I would love to hear your thoughts on that one. Thanks.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4738 - 2015-12-17 22:52:49 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:

Your statement is false. No one is immune to him.


Mechanically, yes, they are.

You're crying about all these meta problems you have(most of which are of your own creation), and demanding a mechanical solution that breaks game balance.

And the answer is no. Cloaks mechanics are perfectly balanced right now. Not one single thing about them needs to be changed.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4739 - 2015-12-17 23:32:25 UTC


Mike....you claim the cloaked player is invulnerable while at a safe.

Now, I've asked you previous questions you failed to answer, but hey I'm an optimist....

What can a cloaked ship do to your directly while cloaked? That is, directly. Not indirectly, but directly. Can it shoot you, scram you, etc.?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, nothing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4740 - 2015-12-17 23:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:

Odd statement, as neither my stance in the freighter thread or here reduced risk or effort in any way. What I asked for in both cases was opportunity to respond.


Sorry Mike, but in the freighter thread it was a way to reduce risk, or more accurately shift it over to the bumping ship....after you already skipped over several chances to "respond". You wanted one last 'get out jail free' card. It clearly reduces the risk by upping the risk of the bumper who is using an expensive faction ship.

Here you want to shift risk from yourself over to the cloaked camper. You want to make it so you can scan them down and increasing their risk while decreasing yours.

Now, to convince me otherwise you are going to have to provide a very good explanation. To date you have failed because you simply say, "No, I don't." That is just a flat assertion with no argument or logic behind it.

Here is a question, if cloaked ships could be scanned would that increase their risk given the current behavior of players using cloaks? That is, don't give me this bullshit that they'll adapt...adaption is a f*cking response to a change in risk! If you increase my risk by changing the mechanics my behavior will change to mitigate the risk increase. Or to put it differently again, you are are foolish enough to use the "they'll adap" argument you are indirectly admitting you want their risk to increase.

Let me repeat the question for you:

Assuming cloak using players do NOT change their behavior and scanning cloaked ships becomes possible, will the risk for players using cloaks increase, decrease or stay the same? Please explain.

Here is my answer, risk will increase. It will increase because being stationary while being scanned is a good way to be scanned down then killed.

Your turn.


Well Mike, gonna try to answer it or shall we just assume you have no answer....primarily because you know the answer wont help your position?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online