Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Oh, I see. We are back to the idea that the camper is harmless, so it's ok he is invulnerable. I apologize for mistaking the direction of the dishonesty in your argument.

There's actually two ways that is ridiculous. The first being the notion he is harmless, since he isn't. When he can no longer fit any modules of an offensive sort at all (weapons, ewar, cyno), unable to gather Intel for friends, and unable to be used as a warp in... Then he is harmless. Just because he can't target anything right that moment does not make him harmless.

However, being harmless does not provide any defense in EvE. If it did then Pods and shuttles would be indestructible, and industrials, transports and most miners would be stronger than titans.

His immunity isn't excused simply because he isn't shooting right that second. Even if he could not shoot at all, ever, it would not excuse the 100% safety granted by the cloak. Not even if he were in fact helpless as a pod. 100% safety is not balanced in any way on the ship scale. For that you need a structure.

I've met people who have played less than a year who have a better grasp of the game than you. I am done trying to make you understand, since it's a futile task

This was precisely the argument laid out by Mark Hadden (look him up on zkill if you like). Years ago he would solo hunt ratters in a stealth bomber. Racked up an pretty impressive list of kills. Then they made rats switch aggression to anyone using any sort of EWAR. Hadden argued that hunting down and catching these ratters was no small task. That he could spend quite a bit of time doing it.

Here is a link to a recent thread on this topic, with Mark Hadden commenting as well as Mike.





So this notion that cloaks are effortless is bullshit.

And you are correct, that changing the mechanics can change the game play, in this case a solo guy hunting cloaked ships was killed off nearly entirely, it has come back a bit with the stratios.

Another good post.

You look at all these threads Mike participates in and you see two common themes....

• Favoring mechanics changes to reduce player effort (e.g. freighter bumping, the rat aggression thread)
• Less risk for the non-PvP oriented.

Edit: Typo...

Anyone mind if we talk about non-covops cloak for a second? Fun as all this wordplay may be, it is not advancing anyone's case.

So. Non-covops. I'm currently assuming that cloaks may become pinpointable (using observatory arrays), probably in combination with some interesting nerfs to local. Faux-blues, delayed, hidden or simply removed - I don't know yet.

Pinpointable may be through a bookmark from the OA (which would suck balls because no advance warning towards the cloaker), perhaps anti-cloak probes or via triangulation with some vague sonar scan indication.

Yet either way: as soon as there exists "a" mechanic of any kind to locate cloaked ships with sufficient precision to decloak them, basically put all non-covops cloaks are royally suckered. Yes?

I don't really mind as far as cloaky sabres or transports go, and even black-ops battleships at risk doesn't sound like a big deal to me. After all, catching sabres and transports is a good thing, and a blops BS should be running with support or be able to either jump out or cyno in reinforcements. So there's that.

I do wonder however what this would mean for capital ships. I know people tend to cloak them up in between jumps because sometimes you just need a midpoint. Or be at-the-ready in a system where you have no POS. I also know their align time and price tag makes them ideal candidates for everyone and their uncle to come out of the woodwork and get on the KM.

Alas, unable to fly capitals myself, I figured I'd just ask what those among you who can think the implications may be. I foresee one of the following: either capitals will be hard pressed to use midpoints, thereby further reducing their operational range. Or cap pilots would need to perform a logoffski whenever they'd usually cloak up. (most of them already use cyno / scout alts so no big deal there). Another option, though less common, is to anchor a small POS in-between (that'd be a medium citadel aye?)

Could someone knowledgable on the subject please enlighten me? Or ... share your thoughts on the non-covops subcaps potentially going down the drain?

I have an idea to solve that, though some may dislike it. I'll throw it in the group anyway: any ship under cloak that is not moving (NOT, as in 0 m/sec) should still be undetectable. Your take on the matter gentlemen?

@Brokk Witgenstein: My position there hasn't changed.

Any mechanic change which ever puts a covert cloak user in a "catchable" position absolutely and completely breaks cloaks in every area.

Yes, Wander, I can completely imagine you think I have proven your point.

Teckos
Even you have 7 PvE characters to 1 PvP. You may define yourself as a PvPer, (after all, anyone can self-define anyway they like), but how does your time spent actually break down? Its not an important point (developers have the data after all). If I am wrong, I am wrong.

Did you catch the o7 episode? The frost team lead was pretty clear on it being a pvp-pve integration tryout. Re earlier discussion points.

Not sure what the ratting meta is now. But devs will shave the ishtar or buff something else until it is no longer that (the med rail reduction hurt). Rats...well...it does put more emphasis on timing (they come in waves and waves end), but is hardly a gamebreaker (though I get it when combined with ratting ishtars...).

...But ratting ishtars goes to what I was saying about omni damage. If the optimal fit is also a pvp ready fit, then a lot of the complaints regarding cloaks vanish...or at least become unreasonable.

He is either having an affect (increasing risk is an affect) or he is not. If he is, then doing so while 100% safe from retaliation is not balanced.

Mag's might have a point if I could get on grid and prepare to whack the cloaked ship the instant it does anything I don't like, but that's not how cloaking works.

He is attempting to justify the cloaks security by saying the ship is harmless until it decloaks.... As I pointed out in the rest of my post that you didn't address, that's not true. At a minimum the ship is still forcing a defensive response to the detriment of its prey, and can still provide other tactical functions not related to putting direct damage on someone's hull. Even if it was truely harmless it still would not justify 100% safety, or else pods, shuttles, industrials, freighters, and most miners would be many orders of magnitude tougher than they are.

Mag's did not say he was not having any effect. He is responding, narrowly, to a point you are making. The invulnerability point. Yes, he is invulnerable so long as the cloak is active and not moving around. Once we starts moving or even engages you he becomes vulnerable.

You are taking a narrow observation and trying to argue much broader implications, IMO.

And yes, a cloak is harmless until it decloaks. It cannot shoot you, web you, scram you, or anything like that.

However, the harm you speak of...what is it that is causing you to dock up? The cloak? No. It is his presence in local. Cloaks and local are inextricably linked, IMO. And in virtually everyone else's opinion....except yours and you cannot make a cogent argument as to why they are not linked. That it works for both players? Yeah, it pretty much does. But that is how the cloaked player is "getting to you"...via local. If there were no local, you'd never know he was there and AFK cloaking would be literally pointless.

It goes like this:

I am in a cloaking ship.
There is no local at all, not even delayed local.
I get to a safe spot.
I activate the cloak.
I go out to eat dinner, a movie, and then.
I come home and read a book and then go to bed.
At the same time I enter your ratting system you undock.
You proceed to rat while I at dinner, because you don't see me as there is no local.
You keep ratting while I am at movies as you have no idea I'm AFK in system...because there is no local.
You keep ratting while I read a book and then go to bed and stop an hour later.
All because you did not know I was there.

Granted, if I did come back and do a d-scan and see you I could decide to hunt you down and try to kill you. So the above scenario is not balanced...but it does highlight how AFK cloaking depends critically on local.

I would like to try and tackle this concept of "the cloaked player has the luxury of picking his time of engagement." This point is often raised by Mike, et. al. as being evidence that cloaks are broken. However, I'd argue that this is actually intended game play because, well that is part of guerrilla warfare.

In guerrilla warfare attacking suddenly and with little warning is the name of the game. It is a form of asymmetric warfare, where one side does not fight in a conventional sense. This is a good thing for the game in that it adds depth to the game and lets smaller groups go out and be a pain in the backside to larger groups. The primary tool for this type of warfare is going to be the cloak.

The problem is that local largerly disrupts guerrilla warfare in that it tells when a neutral or hostile (simply hostile here after) is in system and when first entering it provides and early warning. Because of this effect play can often degenerate into the guerrilla camping the system, quite possibly AFK, and the ratter simply docks up and/or leaves system (goes to HS to do missions, incursions, or mine). This result is sub-optimal (even though quite possibly balanced).

This is, IMO, is why Fozzie, et. al. want to change cloaks and local and intel. To try and break this stalemate and provide a more dynamic form of game play. Cloakes ships will face more risk if they continue on as if nothing changed. PvE players will no longer be able to rely on the cheap, hyper-accurate intel that local provides and will have to do Stuff™ to regain/maintain their intel systems.

Cloaks should allow players to "sneak around". At the same time trying to find them and prevent them from doing bad things should also be part of the game. I am cautiously optimistic about the proposed changes.

"I want to develop a MMOG. I know, I will introduce things on a broad scale that makes it look like no one is playing the game"

Sounds like a plan