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Station Trading, Sniping & Successful Orders
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C1ara
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2015-12-07 13:05:07 UTC
Hello there market community, I'm hoping for some help and guidance in the special way that only you know how!

I set up this alt as a bit of a general dogsbody - to haul and generate some passive income. I'm testing out various ISK-generating activities, but the one that captivates (and eludes) me is station trading.

I have some basic grasp of how it all works, some strategies for approaching buying/selling and a reasonable idea of what constitutes a profitable product. Where it all goes wrong, is at the actual point of buying or selling. For either Buy or Sell, it seems I need to be continuously updating orders - in Jita I would be continually sniped by 0.01 ISK every time I increased my Buy order (it was almost instantaneous).

Could anyone enlighten me on how traders manage this process? It seems almost inconceivable that someone could manage the volume of orders discussed in these threads in this manner. (On one item, I was continuously updating it to try and stay top... across 200+, it would be impossible without the help of some kind of external prices).

How can get around this? Is it somewhat easier with very high volume turn rates, where you may not need to always be top?

Hopefully that made sense. Essentially, I want to know what things I can do, or strategies I can employ, to make sure fulfilment of buy/sell orders is reasonably consistent.

(Yes, I was trading in Jita by the way...)
Solecist Project
#2 - 2015-12-07 13:13:11 UTC
Have several orders for an item spread apart in time so you alwas have an order ready to change to get back on top.

Always helped me ... and I love creating order after order after order until there's no denying me my top spot......

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#3 - 2015-12-07 13:18:06 UTC
Jita is always going to be a lot more aggressive and effort driven than other places because of the number of people competing with you. Everyone's got their own ways of doing things, but for me, I learn my items so I know their trends and can predict their flow of prices, then I set up orders across loads of items. I don't worry too much about babysitting every individual order, I just sweep through now and then and update a load of stuff. For me, It's about being on enough items that some are constantly flipping, even if some are idle. I generally don't mess around with 0.01, as it tends to delay other traders a little more if you smash the price a bit. Margin isn't everything.

If you can use external tools though, you'll find it helps you a lot. I use a few custom tools and spreadsheets that allow me to mix my API data and CREST and tell me what I need to update and what prices I should update them to. There are 3rd party solutions for this type of thing as well, such as evernus, which aren't quite as good as what you can whip up to your exact needs, but do a pretty good job.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
C1ara
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2015-12-07 22:03:03 UTC
Thanks guys... A few questions:

1. Regarding the process of managing orders, are players actually doing this all manually? I mean, I noticed Mentat was able to tell you if your order was no longer the best, but I could not get it to function for me. What is the best way to quickly see where your Buy/Sell order sits vs. others? The in-game process seems cumbersome - i.e. check your orders, note the value, go to market, dial in product, check lowest/highest price (hence why I cannot imagine doing this repeatedly for 200+ orders)

2. Regarding spreadsheets. What exactly are people using these for? I don't feel too much need to crunch profit margins and that level of detail at this stage. But are people somehow using the Eve API to extract market info and identify products to trade?
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#5 - 2015-12-07 22:12:50 UTC
People try to always be the top order. This is not possible on busy items, you only have to be top when the next guy docks to buy something.

How often I update depends on how I feel, if I am in an active competition with someone, it will be constant, otherwise it varies from once an hour, to once a day, to once every few days.

The other thing to remember is, 0.01ing means the price doesnt actually move very much...if you look at the price of most items, it will stay around a value, barring any major changes in mats or CCP changes.
This means, if your order gets undercut, the price will ebb and flow back past yours. The exceptions to this are when you put your order up at the top of the swing, that means you have to wait longer for it to swing past.

Your process updating is a bit longer than normal.

Open wallet, double click order, see if the blue order is the top one, if not, right click, modify, hit enter. So 3 clicks, a mouse scroll and enter.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-12-08 15:33:31 UTC
Or use evernus to check the prices of all your orders and use convenient list in the igb that only shows you the ones that have competition.

Only works once per hour though.
Husidh
Doomheim
#7 - 2015-12-09 03:27:42 UTC
Not sure if you know this from the things you were saying - there is a setting allowing you to mark your orders so you see which are yours, making the process much easier.
MrsPotatoHead
Doomheim
#8 - 2015-12-09 16:43:25 UTC
Husidh wrote:
Not sure if you know this from the things you were saying - there is a setting allowing you to mark your orders so you see which are yours, making the process much easier.



This ^^^^ It makes life so much easier.

Also adding items to your quick search list makes things quicker aswell.
Buzz Orti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-12-11 19:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzz Orti
If the price always went down (ou up) in Jita, everything would be cheaper which is not the case (it's not always true).

I placed around 25 to 45 items for sales, some in groups of items , in approximately the same number of orders.

It was not in Jita, although it is fairly close to it so far.

To my amazement , everything but 20% sold on day 1.

The rest, except for 1 order , sold within the next few days.

I can raise my price to increase my profit and I can also do this in other stations / systems / regions.

All my traders skills are close to level V now and I'm only starting to do more station trading.

Hauling (from others) can also generate profits if done right.

Builds ship in empty Quafe bottle.
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
#10 - 2015-12-11 23:29:09 UTC
It's also useful to remember that if you are getting sniped, you don't have to join in

And of course if you have the capital, you can always buy them out.
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#11 - 2015-12-14 23:01:51 UTC
I got 6 years worth of data for you if you want it. For a price that is Twisted

In a nutshell though. Learn as much as you can about your item, from most and least active time zones to individual trader habits. You can refine your update so things are more in your favor. A significant portion of my profits come from just a couple of updates.

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#12 - 2015-12-17 00:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Station trading always involves a certain amount of Don't-see-the-forest-for-all-the-trees mentality.
Station traders tend to get all caught up in the current price. But what maters is not the current price but the volume.

I often do not sell for the bottom price.
What I do is check the price history and estimate the volume. There are often spikes of volume before large wars etc, so knowing what is going on in eve can make a difference.

This is my process using made up numbers.
I see widgets selling for 100 isk. There are maybe 10 orders selling and the volume of all widgets in this price range is about 100k.
There are of course orders above this, some in the 1000 range, some in the 10000 range, and a couple for 100b.

So I check the history and see that there are periodic spikes of volume of over a million units that pushes the price up to 10000. So I subtract 1 million units from the market and end up pricing my goods at 10200, which puts me about the middle of all the orders.

I walk away. Wait about 20-40 days. Profit.

So the way I see it. Ever drop a bone off a table and watched a couple dogs fighting over the bone when there is this delicious meal sitting on the table? Station traders are so often caught up in fighting over scraps they don't even realize what they are missing. Don't sweat the sniping, really. Snipers aren't stealing your profits, they are stealing your scraps.

edit snipped everything added after Sabriz replied.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#13 - 2015-12-17 00:57:17 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Station trading always involves a certain amount of Don't-see-the-forest-for-all-the-trees mentality.
Station traders tend to get all caught up in the current price. But what maters is not the current price but the volume.

I often do not sell for the bottom price.
What I do is check the price history and estimate the volume. There are often spikes of volume before large wars etc, so knowing what is going on in eve can make a difference.

This is my process using made up numbers.
I see widgets selling for 100 isk. There are maybe 10 orders selling and the volume of all widgets in this price range is about 100k.
There are of course orders above this, some in the 1000 range, some in the 10000 range, and a couple for 100b.

So I check the history and see that there are periodic spikes of volume of over a million units that pushes the price up to 10000. So I subtract 1 million units from the market and end up pricing my goods at 10200, which puts me about the middle of all the orders.

I walk away. Wait about 20-40 days. Profit.

So the way I see it. Ever drop a bone off a table and watched a couple dogs fighting over the bone when there is this delicious meal sitting on the table? Station traders are so often caught up in fighting over scraps they don't even realize what they are missing. Don't sweat the sniping, really. Snipers aren't stealing your profits, they are stealing your scraps.



Sniping is correct if you are constrained by available capital.

But if you are constrained by investable time, this approach works wonders.

I do both. Low margin high turnover stuff is the meat and potatoes of my trading. But I'm always looking for items that are below historic trend prices and where I understand the supply and demand mechanics well enough to jump in with a large buyup.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#14 - 2015-12-17 01:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rykker Bow
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Wait about 20-40 days. Profit.

So the way I see it. Ever drop a bone off a table and watched a couple dogs fighting over the bone when there is this delicious meal sitting on the table? Station traders are so often caught up in fighting over scraps they don't even realize what they are missing. Don't sweat the sniping, really. Snipers aren't stealing your profits, they are stealing your scraps.


The way I see it, I guess I'm the dog fighting over the bones. I cashed in the bones I collected for 75b profits last month and 35b so far this month. There's big business in them there bones!

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#15 - 2015-12-17 04:29:12 UTC
of course there is, or people wouldn't be fighting over it. I'm just saying that there is more than bones to profit from.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.