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Should I stay with one race ship line?

Author
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-12-06 00:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
as a general rule of thumb for skill training

Level 1 & 2 -- you can use it, but not very well
Level 3 -- an average competence that will serve
Level 4 -- good enough for many skills, you can do things well
Level 5 -- you want to specialise and do the best you can


when looking at cross training consider skill group overlap
Amarr & Gallente both armour tank
All 4 factions make use of gunnery
etc etc



edit
one downside you will have if you focus only one races ships

you can't take advantage of periodic 'balance passes' when FOTM ships/fits occur
Kaska Iskalar
Doomheim
#22 - 2015-12-09 05:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaska Iskalar
Qwelas Tagus wrote:
I am focus on combat PvP and PvE (but im still new so mostly PvE).
Should I stay in one race tech line and progress in it so I get bigger ships, our should I reserch diferent race ships?
Exemple: I started with the Gallente race so I when for their ships, and I am at the point I can fly their cruisers, should I go to the battleships and carriers etc.. our should I focus on other races frigates, destroyers etc...
Also I get what ship Tech lvl is but is there a level 3, and when you refer to ships levels do people refer its tech level?

In the beginning, yes. It's better to be good at one thing than bad at four. Say you fly amarr and caldari ships. One uses missiles/hybrids and shields. The other uses lasers/drones and armor. If you train both at once your skills for each one will only be half as high as they could be. Get good at one thing before moving on to the next. And ship size really depends on what you want to do. There are things where big ships are a terrible idea and things where big ships are mandatory.

Kitty Bear wrote:
as a general rule of thumb for skill training

Level 1 & 2 -- you can use it, but not very well
Level 3 -- an average competence that will serve
Level 4 -- good enough for many skills, you can do things well
Level 5 -- you want to specialise and do the best you can

They changed a bunch of skill names since I've been gone so I have no idea what they're called now, but the exceptions are capacitor capacity, capacitor recharge, power grid, CPU and drones. You want those at 5 ASAP. Other than those I'd focus on getting the relevant skills to level 3 unless you need them higher for skill book requirements or T2 or something.

Do Little wrote:
Gallente hulls like Tristan, Algos and Vexor are among the best in the game.

Last time I played it was all about winmatar and drakes, and gallente was considered gimpy. It doesn't really matter what's OP at the moment. By the time you're done training it it'll be nerfed anyway.
Kaska Iskalar
Doomheim
#23 - 2015-12-09 06:15:29 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
You can train all races of ships and weapons to level 3 in under 45 days.

* All T1, Navy & Pirate Frigates, their weapons, and weapon support skills.
* All T1, Navy & Pirate Destroyers, their weapons, and weapon support skills.
* All T1, Navy & Pirate Cruisers, their weapons, and weapon support skills.
* All T1, Navy & Pirate Battlecruisers, their weapons, and weapon support skills.
* All T1, Navy & Pirate Battleships, their weapons, and weapon support skills.

That's a lot of ships.

That's not true, unless you have some set of absolutely perfect circumstances that you're calculating by, like +5 implants and a +9 cerebral accelerator and half a regular one after that runs out or something. Or unless you're planning to send him out in a battleship with 3 t1 drones so he can immediately lose it to a scrambling frig in his first mission. It takes upwards of 60 days to fly one race of subcaps somewhat reasonably well, with mostly lv3 support skills, and you still wouldn't have a completely T2 fit. That's based on +3 implants and a fairly good stat map.
Solai
Doughfleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#24 - 2015-12-09 06:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Solai
Kaska Iskalar wrote:

In the beginning, yes. It's better to be good at one thing than bad at four. Say you fly amarr and caldari ships. One uses missiles/hybrids and shields. The other uses lasers/drones and armor. If you train both at once your skills for each one will only be half as high as they could be. Get good at one thing before moving on to the next. And ship size really depends on what you want to do. There are things where big ships are a terrible idea and things where big ships are mandatory.

I disagree with this.

The only circumstance where final results (in terms of damage, tank, capacitor, etc) for a broad-but-shallow skillset are half as good as a deep, specialized skillset is when the metric you're looking at has many compounding trained modifiers. And getting all those compounding bonuses represents a lot of training, such as with gunnery, so this represents a prime example of diminishing returns.

And in a simpler comparison, the difference between one skill at rank 2 and a skill at rank 5 is usually something like a 15% raw difference. But gaining that extra 15% will be something like 5 days of training. This is not a good time-per-bonus value. Bad trade, if you have other, shorter-training choices.

More realistically, In most circumstances, there is no simple, master metric to judge one's capability by. Rather, it's an array of circumstantial factors, most of which you can influence beforehand and throughout. Generally, you wont find yourself forced into a situation where it's (for example)purely a DPS race with no other recourse or modulating factors. Setup and decisions beforehand, skirmish maneuvering, meta-game factors, etc etc all end up playing in so as to reduce the importance of SP's impact greatly. Especially relative to other games.

A more practical metric is whether you're able to adapt to changing situations. By avoiding the most challenging/strongest factors, and by leveraging against a weak point. Versatility and awareness are very powerful, and versatility trains very quickly.

This isn't even accounting for the fun factor, or the ability to change what you're doing entirely. Suppose you've trained one thing for days, or weeks, but now you want to do something else. Or suppose you suddenly become interested in a particular ship other than what you've got now. Specialization has not helped you in these common circumstances.

Train everything to 2 or 3. This is the best, most practical real-world potency-per-time ratio, and the most likely to keep Eve from getting boring, too.
Solai
Doughfleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#25 - 2015-12-09 06:51:18 UTC
Caveat: If one knows what they want to do right now, and can't do it, then train toward it now. If that requires specialization, so be it.
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#26 - 2015-12-09 10:34:27 UTC
For the case you do not wnat to dig through the walls of text here:
PvP for newbee means frigates. Cause they are chip and you will lose them a lot.
PvE means Battleships, cause being able to run L4 in Batttlecruiser or T2 cruiser does not mean you should - it will take longer so your ISK/hour ratio will drop.

Stick with Gallente - drones will let your Dominix do selectable damage (read eve-survival.org to find out what drones to use in what mission) and gallente frigates are ok in PVP. That means focus on drones, small hybrids, armor and core skills. Later on you can start skilling shields, missiles, other races etc...
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#27 - 2015-12-16 02:03:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Kaska Iskalar wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
You can train all races of ships and weapons to level 3 in under 45 days.

* All T1, Navy & Pirate Frigates, their weapons, and weapon support skills.
* All T1, Navy & Pirate Destroyers, their weapons, and weapon support skills.
* All T1, Navy & Pirate Cruisers, their weapons, and weapon support skills.
* All T1, Navy & Pirate Battlecruisers, their weapons, and weapon support skills.
* All T1, Navy & Pirate Battleships, their weapons, and weapon support skills.

That's a lot of ships.

That's not true, unless you have some set of absolutely perfect circumstances that you're calculating by, like +5 implants and a +9 cerebral accelerator and half a regular one after that runs out or something. Or unless you're planning to send him out in a battleship with 3 t1 drones so he can immediately lose it to a scrambling frig in his first mission. It takes upwards of 60 days to fly one race of subcaps somewhat reasonably well, with mostly lv3 support skills, and you still wouldn't have a completely T2 fit. That's based on +3 implants and a fairly good stat map.

The 45 days is without implants, without boosters, and with default attributes.

Of course additional skills will be required to fit a ship, and adequately pilot it. I only indicated ship and weapon training time. I made no other claims.

Also keep in mind that many skills overlap. i.e. armor tanking is the same on all ships that armor tank. So you don't have to train those skills over again for each ship.

I've not checked the other basic skills, but I suspect one could get a large number of them to level 3 in another 45 days.

For what it is worth, at around 45-60 days I was doing level 3 missions and class 2 wormhole sites with meta 4 modules and a battlecruiser, and with mostly level 3 skills. I was also a very proficient miner at the time, and could use light combat drones.

I didn't train for any T2 weapons until I started having trouble doing level 4 missions in the same battlecruiser (I did the difficult ones using meta 4 weapons and faction ammo). Of course by that time I also had skills for the other T2 fittings (level 4 skills).
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