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Why did capitals become "useless"

Author
Severice
The Looney Bin
Fraternity.
#1 - 2015-12-15 20:19:17 UTC
With entosis sov capital combat has changed a lot. Less and less are capitals actually doing anything. They don't have any clear role except to shoot eachother, and that's not really needed.

The problem was when you took away their primary role, you didn't need to apply a large amount of damage to a target in a small amount of time. So people stopped using them. A frig and a dread are just as effective at capping a system.

Citadels aren't going to change this mechanic. They'll be huge, expensive, and damage mitigation will cause them to die to 120 frigs, just as fast as 2 dreads. So the only reason to use a capital ship is if you don't have the numbers to do it with cruisers/bs. Which means you probably just don't have the numbers to get the job done.

Damage mitigation needs to not be a specific number. It needs to be a progressive system. The more damage you deal, the more it resists you, but your added damage always adds to the rate at which it decays. Basically for every 2% the damage dealt goes up, it's resists go up enough to counter half of that.

100dps, 1% resists 90 effective dps
200dps, 2% resists 180 effective dps
300dps, 3% resists 270 effective dps.

Or instead of having the resist rise as a matter of total incoming damage. Have them rise based on number of players shoot at it. 100 frigs will have the same resists as 100 dreads. Meaning the dreads are the better solution for the job as the dreads will have a much higher dps.

This preserves the role of siege modes and capitals, without making citadels die instantly, and makes them vulnerable to smaller groups. More is better, but less is fine too.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#2 - 2015-12-15 23:51:47 UTC
100dps, 1% resists should be 99dps effective.

All of your examples are actually 10% resists.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#3 - 2015-12-15 23:58:40 UTC
It however causes N+1 to become a thing again, something Citadels were specifically designed to prevent so no.
Also Capitals are not and never did become useless. People just perceived them to be.
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
SONS of BANE
#4 - 2015-12-16 00:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mornak
all your examples are about undefended citadels. imagine for example a 20+ cap gang supported by 50-100 subcaps defend a citadel... how are you going to deal with that without caps of your own? (new tracking dread guns and stuff coming too, you know)

I'd say we just wait a bit and see how things work out before we start complaining....

EDIT: plus what Nevyn Auscent said...
Severice
The Looney Bin
Fraternity.
#5 - 2015-12-16 02:34:22 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
100dps, 1% resists should be 99dps effective.

All of your examples are actually 10% resists.


Riiiight. I'm ********. My bad on that one.

Mornak wrote:

all your examples are about undefended citadels. imagine for example a 20+ cap gang supported by 50-100 subcaps defend a citadel... how are you going to deal with that without caps of your own? (new tracking dread guns and stuff coming too, you know)

I'd say we just wait a bit and see how things work out before we start complaining....

EDIT: plus what Nevyn Auscent said...



In regards to N+1 it's a thing. It's always been a thing. It will always be a thing. it's a thing of all things. Quantity has a quality all it's own.

Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-12-16 16:52:57 UTC
Severice wrote:
With entosis sov capital combat has changed a lot. Less and less are capitals actually doing anything. They don't have any clear role except to shoot eachother, and that's not really needed.

The problem was when you took away their primary role, you didn't need to apply a large amount of damage to a target in a small amount of time. So people stopped using them. A frig and a dread are just as effective at capping a system.

Citadels aren't going to change this mechanic. They'll be huge, expensive, and damage mitigation will cause them to die to 120 frigs, just as fast as 2 dreads. So the only reason to use a capital ship is if you don't have the numbers to do it with cruisers/bs. Which means you probably just don't have the numbers to get the job done.

Damage mitigation needs to not be a specific number. It needs to be a progressive system. The more damage you deal, the more it resists you, but your added damage always adds to the rate at which it decays. Basically for every 2% the damage dealt goes up, it's resists go up enough to counter half of that.

100dps, 1% resists 90 effective dps
200dps, 2% resists 180 effective dps
300dps, 3% resists 270 effective dps.

Or instead of having the resist rise as a matter of total incoming damage. Have them rise based on number of players shoot at it. 100 frigs will have the same resists as 100 dreads. Meaning the dreads are the better solution for the job as the dreads will have a much higher dps.

This preserves the role of siege modes and capitals, without making citadels die instantly, and makes them vulnerable to smaller groups. More is better, but less is fine too.


Please inform yourself before thinking about a solution CCP is already working on. Yes Capital Ships are not as needed as in the past, yes CCP knows that and there will be a Capital overhaul. And if you payed a little intentions you would know that.

and no to the idea.

-1
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2015-12-20 17:39:32 UTC
If capitals did indeed become useless I may sympathize with this but go through low or wh and you will find they are used a fair amount