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PLEX and it True Nature

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Author
Conjaqq
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2015-12-14 12:46:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Conjaqq
I can only agree that plex prices are way way to high atm. That being said, you can with relatively ease get the isk you need to run a few accounts. It does not take alot of hours to do so.


I dont think CCP cares about the plex prices that much, they gain on prices being high.
High prices(ingame) leaves more incentitive for customers to buy a PLEX. Essentially as a customer you get more out of every penny spent on the product. Seeing as the plex supply has dropped recently it would be bad business to do any changes that can increase this tendency.

On the other hand you lose players/alt accounts because people can't be arsed to farm for more isk, and at the same time are not willingly to pay for subscriptions. But these players weren't paying customers to being with, so in general CCP have not lost anything.

From a pure speculative(and objectively mind you) point of view, i'm 90% sure the lack of logon's we're seeing these days, are because of the plex prices, people can't keep their alt accounts running as it's to time consuming to run more than a few at a time.

I'm a victim of that, a few of my accounts are gathering dust, and will gather dust until/if this issue is fixed..I found myself using more and more time on gathering isk to pay for my accounts, in the end it was just a matter of logging on to get the isk required, and that sucked the fun right out of the game.



In my opinion i think it's disgusting that PLEX are a commodity that people are doing market speculation with. That being said, it's the name of the game... eve is hard, and always will be.

However i wouldn't mind if they just capped the amount of plexes one can have at any given time... Maybe at five or so. This does bring a whole other issues i won't go in to, but i'm sure that can be solved somehow.
Solecist Project
#22 - 2015-12-14 13:17:51 UTC

It's interesting that people consider something an issue ...
... that I would consider a huge improvement.

Less self entitled leeches and more paying players are a good thing.
Higher PLEX prices for people who don't want to waste their time getting ISK are a good thing as well.


What's really disgusting is how people say so much crap about so many things ...
... when it's all really only about them caring only about themselves.


Selfish freaks, I hope PLEX reaches two billion ISK sooner than later.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#23 - 2015-12-14 13:36:35 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:

It's interesting that people consider something an issue ...
... that I would consider a huge improvement.

Less self entitled leeches and more paying players are a good thing.
Higher PLEX prices for people who don't want to waste their time getting ISK are a good thing as well.


What's really disgusting is how people say so much crap about so many things ...
... when it's all really only about them caring only about themselves.


Selfish freaks, I hope PLEX reaches two billion ISK sooner than later.



You do realise that what you believe essentially condemns what you've just said

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Solecist Project
#24 - 2015-12-14 13:38:30 UTC
Bumblefck wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:

It's interesting that people consider something an issue ...
... that I would consider a huge improvement.

Less self entitled leeches and more paying players are a good thing.
Higher PLEX prices for people who don't want to waste their time getting ISK are a good thing as well.


What's really disgusting is how people say so much crap about so many things ...
... when it's all really only about them caring only about themselves.


Selfish freaks, I hope PLEX reaches two billion ISK sooner than later.



You do realise that what you believe essentially condemns what you've just said

You're ruining it.
Go away.

Hush !


;)

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#25 - 2015-12-14 13:49:36 UTC
This thread has been moved to Features and Ideas.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#26 - 2015-12-14 14:26:45 UTC
Artur Asimov wrote:
I would like to point out that one and the only thing my idea will change is elimination of false demand. So PLEX price would be there where it belong without unpredictable market speculations. You are saying that most part of current demand is created by those hoarders? Then it should be even better idea, cancer is wider spread then I was afraid.
There's no such thing as false demand. If you're buying it to use or buying it for later, it's all just demand.

One thing I'm still struggling to understand though. You call it "cancer", but what exactly is wrong with the current PLEX market? It's a free market where people can move goods how, where and when they want, and your idea is to restrict that down to a single trade only, but what is the problem you are trying to fix?

Artur Asimov wrote:
People Republic of China... I trust that you understand how different they mentality and economy is. They are more likely to spend few times that many time grinding in game then they would spend in job and get it via real world currency. That have nothing to do with european/american/rest-of-world way of playing games.
No, but it does show that the EVE economy isn't destroyed by rising PLEX prices, which is what CCP were saying when they pointed it out.

Artur Asimov wrote:
If problem is connected to massive stockpile of PLEXes (Change in market would most likely create panic and everyone would want to get rid of the stockpile) already in game we could just change them into P-PLEX. That would make all those who was trying to f*** PLEX market for the own personal gain rage... But as well restarted supply making PLEX even rise in price at start. By the way, are you one of those? How many PLEX that you will never use do you have?
All it would mean is that the PLEX price crashes and CCPs income would drop. Noone in their right mind is going to spend $20 for 1.4b this month then $20 for 200m next month.

I don't tend to stockpile PLEX, I buy it and sell it straight away. The thing is, if this all changed people would just trade in something else. The only people hurt by it would be non traders. People who buy PLEX for cash would have a reduced amount of ISK, and a player who bought a PLEX to use then changed their mind and wants to sell it on now wouldn't be able to. Traders would just move onto the next item and start trading away.

Artur Asimov wrote:
Isn't it much more complicated? For example low PLEX price make peoples create more alts which is making additional demand? Higher PLEX price force some people out of game but if they would stay they could buy PLEX in future increasing supply? etc... I believe that kind of complicated system can't be described in such an simple way. PLEX price is hight = cool.
It can be more complicated, sure, but the main drive for people buying PLEX for cash to sell on the market for ISK is how much ISK they get. One thing that's not been mentioned here which I will dance delicately around is that dropping the PLEX price makes illegal RMT more appealing (to buyers who do such things), so on that front dropping PLEX prices too much would be very bad.

Artur Asimov wrote:
If it may help it will, if not it wont. I will no longer comment under this topic untill CCP response. What isn't very likely, right?
Yeah, I doubt you'll get a CCP response. They have in the past though stated this:
"EVE Central Bank may, or may not, take actions to intervene with the PLEX market if its stability is severely threatened.
- Important to note that it does not mean that there is a specific target for PLEX prices or money supply in the future."

So they are only interested in keeping it stable, not steering the price.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#27 - 2015-12-14 14:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Otso Bakarti
I know it's irresistible to play Mister Economics Whiz if you play MMOs. Things seem so very patently obvious. However, even if the OP understood the basics of economics (which the post obviates the OP does not), the OP would understand the price of PLEX only affects those who use them instead of cash to pay for the game.

Just as obviously, the rise of PLEX prices only means players who wish to not pay for the game, but game for free...pretending they're "paying" with PLEX (that's okay, there's a Santa Claus, too!) must grind longer to farm the ISK to buy the PLEX. Those who buy PLEX to sell on the market don't increase the money supply, so they aren't contributing to inflation. (PLEX can't be an ISK faucet.)

Summary:

Those who complain about PLEX prices on the market being too high just don't want to pay money, so big deal.
Grind for it.

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#28 - 2015-12-14 16:07:35 UTC
If CCP wanted to regulate PLEX prices it would be simple. Put them for sale in CONCORD stations for isk. If there were a more or less infinite supply of PLEX at the CONCORD price of 1 billion isk, then the price of PLEX would be effectively capped there. Players could still buy them for real money and put them on them market themselves, but the price would be capped at theCCP set 1 billion isk.

NPC PLEX sales by concord would be an easy and effective way for CCP to put a hard price cap on PLEX and still allow players to buy and sell PLEX under the market cap.

I'm not really for or against any of this, just pointing out that it would be really easy for CCP to step in and cap prices if they wanted to.
Artur Asimov
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-12-14 19:00:54 UTC
Gliese Casserres wrote:
Arthur, my old friend, why are you arguing with GD trolls? Nobody has ever accomplished anything by doing that. Lol


I always have bad ideas and even worse execution. Good to see you again Gliese.


Dear capsulers,

There is no point in this anymore, it seems that there wasn't any at start.

Lets just close this topic. As they say "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" nothing good will come from it.

Again thanks for most of the responses, I think that at least I learned something today.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2015-12-14 23:44:51 UTC
Artur Asimov wrote:


If you sell you want that ISK in moment you put PLEX into gameworld, after all it was the only reason you did it in given time. Supply is generated by people able to give real money to support and sustain CCP.

But what about Demand?


Say’s Law: Supply creates its own demand.

Quote:
Second source of Demand is nightmare of our great system. People that have enought ISK to intercept part of currently added PLEXes as an future market play. It is more then OK from Supply perspective - they get what they want. But those PLEXes aren't used. They disapear from market until they hoarders can make profit selling them. Ugly speculation.


Speculation is a good thing. Economic actors are constantly seeking information about the markets they are engaged in, especially speculators. Upon getting some new information the speculator will act on it and those actions will result in price changes sooner rather than later so that the prices reflect this new information. For example, if there is going to be a sale on PLEX the speculators who have seen the value of their investment rise might sell PLEX immediately to cash out. This will drive down the price ahead of the PLEX sale. Similarly for new uses of PLEX. If CCP links PLEX to some other use in-game then the existing supply of PLEX on the market has become more valuable, the price should go up. At which point the speculator enters the picture and seeing the price is probably going to rise in the future he buys up some of the existing stock driving up the price.

Speculation is not ugly, it is a good thing. Speculation is what keeps investors informed and helps them make good business decisions. Speculation also injects liquidity into the market. This too is a good thing. A liquid market is one where a market participant can buy the good in question without having a substantial effect on the price.

So you are just flat out wrong on speculation being bad.

This automatically renders your entire idea dubious. But I’ll explain why it is bad.

The idea of restricting the use of something will likely drive UP the price of PLEX. Notice my story about how speculators who are holding PLEX in anticipation of higher prices will sell prior to a sale announcement or shortly afterwards? Well with your idea this could NOT happen and the price would take longer to drop. Further, the market would become LESS liquid and that would mean individual purchases would have larger impacts on the price. Given that such a purchase would permanently remove that PLEX from the market chances are it would mean the price response would be positive—i.e. even higher prices.

In short, your idea will likely have exactly the opposite effect you intend. It isn’t just bad, it is horrible. You may have heard of the market’s invisible hand? Yeah, if this change goes into effect you’ll find out about the back of the invisible hand as it ***** slaps you up side the head.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dornier Pfeil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-12-15 01:26:55 UTC
There was a saying in the farm belt of the USA during the last century. 'The solution to high grain prices is...high grain prices.'

So, with apology to some unknown wit for stealing his construction, we have:

The solution to high PLEX prices is...high PLEX prices.

OP, I don't disagree that high plex prices hurt isk farmers. But low plex prices hurt casual players (among others). Transactions have two sides and therefore always have a 'winner' and a 'loser' in the sense that the winner gets more from the transaction than the loser gets. The advantage of the free market is that the distance between these two sides is brought as close as possible by seigniorage* so that the winner isn't too far ahead of the loser. Just ask some traders about the .01 curse.





*Seigniorage is not the correct word but the correct word simply wouldn't come to me. If anyone could help out?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2015-12-15 04:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dornier Pfeil wrote:
There was a saying in the farm belt of the USA during the last century. 'The solution to high grain prices is...high grain prices.'

So, with apology to some unknown wit for stealing his construction, we have:

The solution to high PLEX prices is...high PLEX prices.

OP, I don't disagree that high plex prices hurt isk farmers. But low plex prices hurt casual players (among others). Transactions have two sides and therefore always have a 'winner' and a 'loser' in the sense that the winner gets more from the transaction than the loser gets. The advantage of the free market is that the distance between these two sides is brought as close as possible by seigniorage* so that the winner isn't too far ahead of the loser. Just ask some traders about the .01 curse.





*Seigniorage is not the correct word but the correct word simply wouldn't come to me. If anyone could help out?


Wrong, exchange is a positive sum game. I can't stress that enough. So much economic bullshit has been spouted based on the notion that exchange is a zero sum game.

Oh, and yeah seigniorage is not the right term, that is basically where the government makes a profit by debasing the currency, an inflation tax.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2015-12-15 04:27:18 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
If CCP wanted to regulate PLEX prices it would be simple. Put them for sale in CONCORD stations for isk. If there were a more or less infinite supply of PLEX at the CONCORD price of 1 billion isk, then the price of PLEX would be effectively capped there. Players could still buy them for real money and put them on them market themselves, but the price would be capped at theCCP set 1 billion isk.

NPC PLEX sales by concord would be an easy and effective way for CCP to put a hard price cap on PLEX and still allow players to buy and sell PLEX under the market cap.

I'm not really for or against any of this, just pointing out that it would be really easy for CCP to step in and cap prices if they wanted to.


You can't have an infinite supply when the price is capped. PLEX have to first be bought, then brought into the game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#34 - 2015-12-15 09:23:35 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
[The only people hurt by it would be non traders. People who buy PLEX for cash would have a reduced amount of ISK, and a player who bought a PLEX to use then changed their mind and wants to sell it on now wouldn't be able to.


Not really, there are people that farm until they can pay for their plex, then go out and play the game. This would help these people as they wouldn't need to farm as long and could then go out and play real Eve.

Lucas Kell wrote:
[Traders would just move onto the next item and start trading away.


Except that if they started buying and selling rifters, the masses that manufacture them would see the increase in the profit margins in rifters and would quickly start undercutting the buyers/sellers. The same can't be said to nearly the same degree for PLEX. Just because PLEX goes up 10%, doesn't mean I'm going to start volunteering more for overtime just so I can buy more PLEX.

Didn't CCP at one point state that most Plexes that are purchased on the market, are not even used by the person who purchased them? Every other item in the game has the safety net of being manufactured in the game, which means if I decided to start purchasing and selling rifters at a higher and higher cost, the people who manufacture rifters would see this and increase their supply. The same isn't true for PLEX, because people only have so much money they are willing to dump into a video game. I would like to see how many plexes are actually purchased from CCP every month for the past couple years to see if people are spending more real money on the game or not.

Lastly, I wish CCP would change the ship skin to the LP Stores because that would take away some demand from AURUM (And potentially relieve some stress on PLEX), and increase the LP Stores demand, therefore giving more demand for an isk sink in the game.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2015-12-15 09:38:25 UTC
Artur Asimov wrote:
Fellow capsulers, Dear CCP.

If you don't find this introduction intresting, please just skip to Summary.

I would like to point out and discuss few aspects of PLEX behavior in free market economy that are bothering me. I'm not veteran capsuler, nor skilled or infuencional one - just one of many living in EVE universe background. But maybe this point of view will come in handy now.

Lets start with PLEX itself, only item existing in game that can be legaly bought via real world currency. Creation and implementation of PLEX is one of greatest ideas - giving players much more posibilities then in any other MMO. You are good enought? You can play in cost of hours spend in game working to get one. Do you want to kickstart your project? No problem if you have spare money, just put some PLEX'es on the table.

But in this world, sadly, nothing is perfect. Even the best of ideas can and will be misused. Free market and laws guilding its behavior are inevitable - if there is way to get profit people will find it.

The Reasoning

Supply and Demand. It should explain everything, it should be simple. But it isn't.

PLEX are bought for two reason - you want to get service yourself (Game time, AUR, etc), or you want to sell them for ISK. Only second part is intresting for us here, so lets focus on it.

If you sell you want that ISK in moment you put PLEX into gameworld, after all it was the only reason you did it in given time. Supply is generated by people able to give real money to support and sustain CCP.

But what about Demand?

One source is obvious, people that worked in game to get one. For game time, AUR or whatever they need or want. It is only natural, the reason why such system was implemented in first place.

Second source of Demand is nightmare of our great system. People that have enought ISK to intercept part of currently added PLEXes as an future market play. It is more then OK from Supply perspective - they get what they want. But those PLEXes aren't used. They disapear from market until they hoarders can make profit selling them. Ugly speculation.

Can CCP do something about it? Or rather do laws of free market allow to do anything?

Well... Any intervention will bring only short term change, often followed by reverse, Yo-yo like effect. There is no way to directly control or influence price of items in free market in way we want.


An Idea

CCP is binded by universal rules applying to they creation that they can't change. That is true.

But what if we switch perspective?

Why item that have real money value atteched to it need to work on that same rules as items generated in gameworld?

CCP can't change universal laws but they are game Archgods, every local rule will easly bend to they will.

There is my proposition how to separate PLEX from market speculation leaving it inside free market at that same time:

We don't need second demand generating group, so we shall restrict ability to resell PLEX in market. Person who bring PLEX in game should be unrestricted in way he want to manage it (Sell, move, use etc). But once it change hands PLEX should be locked in state that allow only use - no moving, selling, contracting etc. Due to donate option you can extend game time at your alts or friends acc without any problems. That option could be expand by activating other PLEX option for someone else (There is no way to trade for such thing, no guarantee that gifted person will pay).

Summary

PLEX price is significantly influenced by market plays and speculations that are inseparable part of free market. There is no way CCP can influence PLEX price due to simple laws of economy.

Due to it we should change PLEX status as an item. It should no longer be treated as every other that is 100% in-game generated.

PLEX when it come to game should be 100% unrestricted, as it is today. But once it somehow change owner, from this point it should be impossible to do anything but use it. That would force people to buy only that amount of PLEXes they and they alts/friends directly need.

Example of Implementation

Every PLEX already in game should be associated with current owner. We could for example change it name to G-PLEX what stands for General Player Licence EXtension. Every new PLEX should be a G-PLEX as well.

Once G-PLEX is sold, contracted, traded, droped in jetcan and picked - in other words it is own by someone else it is no longer G-PLEX. Game will change it to P-PLEX. Personal Player Licence EXtension. When person trade for G-PLEX it should get notification that upon end of transaction she/he will not be able to resell it in any way.

P-PLEX can't be moved from station hangar and is automaticaly moved to it if capsuler is docked to station owned by NPC an have one in hold. You can't sell, contract or trade P-PLEX but in any time from any place you can activate and use any of its function you like.

Final Thoughts

This post is writen in rather confident style. I'm not saying that whole universe work exacly like I belive it does. It is my attempt to present way of my thoughts that lead to presented idea. If I'm wrong please feel free to correct me. If my idea have obvious flaw, please point it out.

I believe that it may help. That is why I sacrificed my sleep time to write it down (Idea poped out from nowhere just before I fall asleep)

Thanks for your patience and attention if your read whole message. I hope that it wasn't waste of your time and together on this basic we will be able to create working solution.

o7



Plex price is just fine, pay with subs if you can´t afford to buy ingame plex.

-1
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#36 - 2015-12-15 09:49:59 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Restrict the ability to retrade plex and you will limit the number of plex on the market, thus increasing the cost of plex. Your 'solution' would have a backwards effect.

OP is too dumb to see more than 1 step ahead.

His "solution" fixes nothing.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Varyah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-12-15 10:30:28 UTC
Feledain wrote:
The thing is.

There are litteraly millions of € in Plex on stations all over new eden. They are kind of a loan to CCP. If you force the use of this stockpile CCP will loose that money that acts as a intrest free loan.

And to be honest. All you want is cheap Plex for yourself.


Wat? How is that a loan? Even if you would like to call it a loan it would be with an interest of -100% (yes, negative) because CCP will never pay back that 'loan' of yours.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#38 - 2015-12-15 16:49:28 UTC
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Plex price is just fine, pay with subs if you can´t afford to buy ingame plex.


This. Anyone grinding ISK purely to buy plex has no idea how to value their time.

How many hours does it take you to get 1+ bil ISK in game?

You can earn the $15 to pay a month's sub in less than an hour IRL.
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