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High Security Capitals

Author
Tragot Gomndor
Three Sword Inc
#21 - 2015-12-06 14:51:25 UTC
I dont even read anything of this thread, i just point to my signature...

NONONONONONO TO CAPS IN HIGHSEC NO

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#22 - 2015-12-06 16:24:58 UTC
I think the "big boys toys" reason is the best for denying the use of caps in high sec, you want to play with them go to where the big boys play with their toys.

Why do I think caps are bad in high sec?

The whole nearly 100% safe use of high sec as a means of storing and transporting the tools / materials of war.

Then there is the issue raised with how to balance them. If significant nerf's or restrictions are required to balance them for use high sec then they do not belong there to start with.

But an even bigger on to me is the hassles with larger corps declaring war on the smaller corps. I grant as fact that very few high sec corps actually fight back but having to fight capital ships would be a guarantee that none of them would.
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-12-07 04:07:42 UTC
The only way I can see it working is if CCP added a new line of ships that are somewhere between a battleship and a dreadnaught/carrier. It'd have to have more beef and damage than a BS, but be too small to be considered a real capital. Also, it can only be built in POS.

However, if CCP were to add a new line of ships, I'd prefer attack-style battleships that can fit XL guns for pew-pewing bigger ships.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#24 - 2015-12-07 05:58:11 UTC
Pretty sure highsec capitals would largely be balanced by the fact they'd have to use gates, which would be terrible.

The real concern is the near invulnerability that capitals flown by NPC corp characters would have. Multi-million HP ships that can't be shot at by anyone without CONCORD intervention and can carry large amounts of cargo would be fairly questionable.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2015-12-07 09:42:48 UTC
Allow them, but take away their concord protection, so everybody can agress/ attack without getting concorded.

Sound stupid ? Yes but i thought this was the idea behind this post.

-1
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#26 - 2015-12-07 12:05:40 UTC
So if me and 8 corpmates sit on the Jita undock in carriers and rep random folks... What are the odds we could de-agress before we get popped? Probably pretty good.


My general rule of thumb is that carriers in HS are for 1 of 2 reasons.

1. A risk averse player has trained up to capital ships, but is afraid to leave HS due to the risk involved.

2. Large null groups are trying to take risk free shortcuts through HS instead of dying in Aridia and what not.

There really aren't any other viable reasons for capitals in HS. The above reasons, though viable are quite bad ideas. There are not any good reasons for capitals in HS. I'm kind of a hardass, but I'd get bowheads and jump freighters out of HS too. (Yeah yeah I know - eve would end w/ in 2 weeks if we did that)

Keine Arvok
Semper Fidelis Foedero
#27 - 2015-12-09 16:47:37 UTC
"Play with the big boys"? I prefer to distance myself from Spewing Cesspits of Conceited Egos.

I just wana keep to myself in a small pocket of space and left alone to my devices. With a full time job and depression I can only get around to Eve once a month or so. I keep the accounts active to train, but I can go 6-9 months before remembering to log in again. Eve drama doesnt appeal to me much. API keys keep me out of null, I might return to low in 2017. In the mean time. I'll wait and see how this game plays itself out for 2016, you guys have given me a pretty good idea of what to expect. Thank You.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#28 - 2015-12-09 16:51:33 UTC
Can I fly my Archon in Apanake when I face off the Bloody Raiders at their blockade, then?


If so, cool!

If not, make it so Bear

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#29 - 2015-12-09 18:23:43 UTC
Keine Arvok wrote:
"Play with the big boys"? I prefer to distance myself from Spewing Cesspits of Conceited Egos.

I just wana keep to myself in a small pocket of space and left alone to my devices. With a full time job and depression I can only get around to Eve once a month or so. I keep the accounts active to train, but I can go 6-9 months before remembering to log in again. Eve drama doesnt appeal to me much. API keys keep me out of null, I might return to low in 2017. In the mean time. I'll wait and see how this game plays itself out for 2016, you guys have given me a pretty good idea of what to expect. Thank You.

Why play a multiplayer game at that point then?

Particularly one about kicking peoples sand castles over,
that happens to be saturated with predators,
and then aspire to become "big game",
while refusing the basic requirement for entry into a herdWhat?

I can empathise with your issues ,really I can (bar the api thing, I think you're really losing out because of that) but no one gets to be left alone to their own devices here, that's one of the definitive aspects of eve and has been from day one.
Benjen Nahaaris
Doomheim
#30 - 2015-12-11 06:35:13 UTC
The best idea is to allow them, but make aggression mechanics work like MTUs. Aggressors only get a suspect flag, not a criminal flag.
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-12-12 13:57:20 UTC
Or they can just be allowed in highsec, doesn't make sense that they aren't.

won't change much other than sieging poses would become viable in hs wich might be a bad thing i'm not sure
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#32 - 2015-12-12 17:04:08 UTC
O'nira wrote:
Or they can just be allowed in highsec, doesn't make sense that they aren't.

won't change much other than sieging poses would become viable in hs wich might be a bad thing i'm not sure


And running level 4's become quicker and easier, offering even more rewards to hi-sec for no risk.
And station games will be even more ridiculous with an even greater gap in power between noobs and vets.
And hauling will become even safer.

no, wont change much at all Roll

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2015-12-12 18:51:52 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
O'nira wrote:
Or they can just be allowed in highsec, doesn't make sense that they aren't.

won't change much other than sieging poses would become viable in hs wich might be a bad thing i'm not sure


And running level 4's become quicker and easier, offering even more rewards to hi-sec for no risk.
And station games will be even more ridiculous with an even greater gap in power between noobs and vets.
And hauling will become even safer.

no, wont change much at all Roll



Using carriers in L4 would be terrible. After a certain point it is well known that most of the mission time is actually spent in a Warp tunnel.

If people want to run L4 in slowass trash then more power to to them. Warp speed rigged machariel will dunk it for isk/hour from here to eternity.

The others are valid though.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#34 - 2015-12-12 19:01:41 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

I'd get bowheads and jump freighters out of HS too. (Yeah yeah I know - eve would end w/ in 2 weeks if we did that)



Nah it wouldn't be that bad just add tedium and the bowhead would see almost no use
Lugh Crow-Slave
#35 - 2015-12-12 19:02:37 UTC
O'nira wrote:
Or they can just be allowed in highsec, doesn't make sense that they aren't.

won't change much other than sieging poses would become viable in hs wich might be a bad thing i'm not sure


You ma'am have never played station games with a carrier
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-12-13 19:13:43 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
O'nira wrote:
Or they can just be allowed in highsec, doesn't make sense that they aren't.

won't change much other than sieging poses would become viable in hs wich might be a bad thing i'm not sure


And running level 4's become quicker and easier, offering even more rewards to hi-sec for no risk.
And station games will be even more ridiculous with an even greater gap in power between noobs and vets.
And hauling will become even safer.

no, wont change much at all Roll



running level 4 in a capital is such a massive waste of time that if people want to do it then let them, most missions have accelaration gates anyway that don't allow capitals.

for every carrier playing station games there will be 10 dreads ready to pound it into a nice little killmail, this might be a problem in some terrible back end hs system but that's about it and if they can do a carrier they can probably do a bunch of guardians and basilisk just as easily.

freighters are already allowed in highsec, only transporting ships inside a carrier would become safer but who cares about this?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#37 - 2015-12-13 20:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
O'nira wrote:
for every carrier playing station games there will be 10 dreads ready to pound it into a nice little killmail, this might be a problem in some terrible back end hs system but that's about it and if they can do a carrier they can probably do a bunch of guardians and basilisk just as easily.

- You cannot "pounce" on anything in High-sec. Cynos do not work there. Your only recourse would be to have the dreds already docked in the station where the station games are happening... something which is anything but discrete.
This is why capitals are somewhat balanced with regards to low and null-sec station games. At least you can "surprise attack."

- Guardians and Basilisks don't have the massive repping rate of capitals (~300 to 500 raw HP/sec vs. 1000 to 1500 raw HP/sec) nor the massive wall of EHP of capitals (~60 to 80 thousand EHP vs 1.5 to 2.2 million EHP).
edit: Fun Fact... it takes about 25,000+ DPS to kill a 1.5 million EHP Carrier in 60 seconds.

O'nira wrote:
freighters are already allowed in highsec, only transporting ships inside a carrier would become safer but who cares about this?

Anyone who cares about balance and rewards vs risk. It should never be unreasonably hard to gank a loot pinata.

For reference; it currently requires about ~30 gank Talos or ~76 gank Catalysts to kill a Providence with HG-Slave Implants and 3x Reinforced Bulkheads in a 0.5 system. Much, much, MUCH less if a Freighter pilot fits Cargo Expanders.

In comparison; it would require ~35+ gank Talos or ~95+ gank Catalysts to kill an Archon fitted with 7 Cargo Expanders and no implants in a 0.5 system (which is, ironically, the same number of ganking ships required to kill a full-tank Bowhead too).
Now a fully tanked ~2 million EHP Archon would require ~150 gank Talos or ~380 gank Catalysts in a 0.5 system.
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-12-14 05:46:39 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
O'nira wrote:
for every carrier playing station games there will be 10 dreads ready to pound it into a nice little killmail, this might be a problem in some terrible back end hs system but that's about it and if they can do a carrier they can probably do a bunch of guardians and basilisk just as easily.

- You cannot "pounce" on anything in High-sec. Cynos do not work there. Your only recourse would be to have the dreds already docked in the station where the station games are happening... something which is anything but discrete.
This is why capitals are somewhat balanced with regards to low and null-sec station games. At least you can "surprise attack."

- Guardians and Basilisks don't have the massive repping rate of capitals (~300 to 500 raw HP/sec vs. 1000 to 1500 raw HP/sec) nor the massive wall of EHP of capitals (~60 to 80 thousand EHP vs 1.5 to 2.2 million EHP).
edit: Fun Fact... it takes about 25,000+ DPS to kill a 1.5 million EHP Carrier in 60 seconds.

O'nira wrote:
freighters are already allowed in highsec, only transporting ships inside a carrier would become safer but who cares about this?

Anyone who cares about balance and rewards vs risk. It should never be unreasonably hard to gank a loot pinata.

For reference; it currently requires about ~30 gank Talos or ~76 gank Catalysts to kill a Providence with HG-Slave Implants and 3x Reinforced Bulkheads in a 0.5 system. Much, much, MUCH less if a Freighter pilot fits Cargo Expanders.

In comparison; it would require ~35+ gank Talos or ~95+ gank Catalysts to kill an Archon fitted with 7 Cargo Expanders and no implants in a 0.5 system (which is, ironically, the same number of ganking ships required to kill a full-tank Bowhead too).
Now a fully tanked ~2 million EHP Archon would require ~150 gank Talos or ~380 gank Catalysts in a 0.5 system.


i said pound not pounce and i'm assuming cynos are gonna be allowed if capitals are, it also doesn't matter if they are docked or not no one will find out until you undock it/them so not sure why it wouldn't be discreet or why that matters even. will be even easier if titans are allowed.

carriers also need to be in triage to be repping hard wich makes them immobile for 5minutes. fun fact you need about 2 dreads to get 25.000dps


an obelisk with 3 expended cargholds has 1.113.9970 m3 carghold, an archon with 7expanded cargoholds has 4.519 m3 cargohold with another 10k m3 in the fleet hangar
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#39 - 2015-12-14 05:49:27 UTC
you may as well use a cloaky hauler and be practically 100% safe with a 13.431 m3 cargohold
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#40 - 2015-12-14 06:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
O'nira wrote:
i'm assuming cynos are gonna be allowed if capitals are, it also doesn't matter if they are docked or not no one will find out until you undock it/them so not sure why it wouldn't be discreet or why that matters even.

Word of the wise; never assume.

And Dreds are slow. Very slow. "Slow" warping them in to an area WILL be noticed. As it is noticed in low-sec right now.

O'nira wrote:
will be even easier if titans are allowed.

Oh joy... null sec combat and tactics with high-sec tedium. Just what we need.

O'nira wrote:
carriers also need to be in triage to be repping hard wich makes them immobile for 5minutes. fun fact you need about 2 dreads to get 25.000dps

The numbers I posted were non-triage. If you want Triage numbers, multiply the ones I provided by 3 (Triage doubles rep rate and halves cycle time).

O'nira wrote:
an obelisk with 3 expended cargholds has 1.113.9970 m3 carghold, an archon with 7expanded cargoholds has 4.519 m3 cargohold with another 10k m3 in the fleet hangar

And? 10k Fleet hanger, 1kk ship maintenance bay that can carry ships holding cap boosters and ammo... all of those things count too.
But that is beside the point. I was pointing out how absurd it is to even attempt to gank a carrier.


Bottom line; capitals are extremely overpowered for high-sec. Introducing them to high-sec will only cause problems down the road... problems that cannot be easily fixed... all because some people think "it would be cool."
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