These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Fixing battleships
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#1 - 2015-12-09 22:41:44 UTC
So battleships have been more than lackluster since the warp nerf, with the obvious exception aside. What can be done to fix them other than just undoing the nerf? What if battleships received their weapon bonus not just for the weapon size they employ, but for that entire weapon class? IE, the Raven now receives a rate of fire bonus to torpedoes, cruise missiles, rapid heavies, HAMs, heavy missiles, rapid lights, lights, and rockets, as well as a velocity bonus to all of the same. The Raven is now literally king of the missiles. This would open up the small ship killing ability of battleships without making them too anti-small ship, because obviously they aren't getting any faster. Now small ships have to think twice before engaging a battleship. It could be, and probably is, fit to kill you. Good luck sig tanking that Raven. He's got your number. Run or feel his wrath. This would also make battleship sized weapons viable again, because now there might actually be other battleships around to shoot, like the ones looking to kill frigates and cruisers.

Other suggestions are also welcome.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2 - 2015-12-09 22:47:15 UTC
Valacus wrote:
So battleships have been more than lackluster since the warp nerf, with the obvious exception aside. What can be done to fix them other than just undoing the nerf? What if battleships received their weapon bonus not just for the weapon size they employ, but for that entire weapon class? IE, the Raven now receives a rate of fire bonus to torpedoes, cruise missiles, rapid heavies, HAMs, heavy missiles, rapid lights, lights, and rockets, as well as a velocity bonus to all of the same. The Raven is now literally king of the missiles. This would open up the small ship killing ability of battleships without making them too anti-small ship, because obviously they aren't getting any faster. Now small ships have to think twice before engaging a battleship. It could be, and probably is, fit to kill you. Good luck sig tanking that Raven. He's got your number. Run or feel his wrath. This would also make battleship sized weapons viable again, because now there might actually be other battleships around to shoot, like the ones looking to kill frigates and cruisers.

Other suggestions are also welcome.


I sort of suggested the weapon bonus thing recently, but I believe that it should apply only damage bonuses to lower size weapons, so as to incentivize battleships to use their own weapon class, but still allow for inventive fits and concepts.

Functional point defense weapons, as it were.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#3 - 2015-12-09 23:56:08 UTC
It would certainly shake things up and make for some interesting fits, but I think it opens up too much fitting space. I would prefer to see a change to the weapons' purpose while keeping fitting costs fairly similar.

For example, I might suggest changing railguns as follows:

425mm railguns - become the standard Hybrid battleship long range weapon. Designed primarily to hit other Battleships. Fires large ammo. Assume eight turrets gives 800 DPS at 40km with Navy Antimatter L at all Level V skills and three damage mods. Tracks like a 425mm railgun. Same turret resolution as a 425mm railgun.

350mm railguns - get renamed to Dual 250mm railguns. It fires two M charges each shot. Same fitting cost as 425mm railguns. Assume eight turrets gives 800 DPS at 20km with Navy Antimatter M at all Level V skills and three damage mods. Tracks like a 250mm railgun. Same turret signature resolution as a 250mm rail. Same cap usage as 425mm railgun.

Dual 250mm railgun - gets renamed to Quad 150mm railgun. It fires four S charges each shot. Same fitting cost as 425mm railguns. Assume eight turrets gives 800 DPS at 10km with Navy Antimatter S at all Level V skills with three damage mods. Tracks like a 150mm railgun. Same turret signature resolution as a 150mm rail. Same cap usage as a 425mm railgun.

Just throwing this out there - not emotionally invested in this idea. Thoughts? Totally OP? Too homogenized?

Could make for some interesting fits. You might even see someone decide that sacrificing some capability against a peer adversary was worth fitting six 425's and two Quad 150's.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2015-12-10 00:05:57 UTC
a rocket fit raven...

oh my

I would honestly think controlling the biggest threats to battleships might be anothe route to go. One thing I've noticed from this recent 'war' is that lowsec fcations are very happy to throw down battleships even in small gangs, whereas in null it is notieably less common. I want to believe it haseomthing to do with bombs or bubbles.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-12-10 02:46:43 UTC
Howabout let's not marginalize smaller ships and instead push for design changes that maintain battleship's niche? More weapons to shoot little ships just crushes the usage of little ships while causing battleships to be better overall. Why don't we instead capitalize on what battleships already do best, and make them do that even better? For instance, battleships have the most hit points. Problem is, they just don't have a lot more than battlecruisers. So howabout buff battleship hit points?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#6 - 2015-12-10 03:55:47 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Howabout let's not marginalize smaller ships and instead push for design changes that maintain battleship's niche? More weapons to shoot little ships just crushes the usage of little ships while causing battleships to be better overall. Why don't we instead capitalize on what battleships already do best, and make them do that even better? For instance, battleships have the most hit points. Problem is, they just don't have a lot more than battlecruisers. So howabout buff battleship hit points?


Nothing is going to crush little ships, because speed is still the king of EVE and battleships don't have it. Giving battleships the ability to deal with them just makes little ships select their target more carefully, as opposed to just blobbing Tristans on anything and everything.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-12-10 04:43:19 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Howabout let's not marginalize smaller ships and instead push for design changes that maintain battleship's niche? More weapons to shoot little ships just crushes the usage of little ships while causing battleships to be better overall. Why don't we instead capitalize on what battleships already do best, and make them do that even better? For instance, battleships have the most hit points. Problem is, they just don't have a lot more than battlecruisers. So howabout buff battleship hit points?


Nothing is going to crush little ships, because speed is still the king of EVE and battleships don't have it. Giving battleships the ability to deal with them just makes little ships select their target more carefully, as opposed to just blobbing Tristans on anything and everything.


The ability to deal with fast ships with modules like, lets say webifiers & target painters?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Trance Cendant
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-12-10 06:01:21 UTC
I think the way to save battleships is to make a few major changes to warp strength, scrams, and disruptors. Just like they are doing with supers, I think bigger ships should have more warp strength.

My two proposals: Frigates and destroyers have 1 warp strength, cruisers and battlecruisers have 2, and battleships have a strength of 3. This would make it to where a 300m isk BS can not be tackled by a 300k isk frigate. Yes the BS might not be able to kill it, but it can use its power advantage to warp away. It would take at least 3 frigs to tackle a BS if they have a single scram.

To make it even among ships of the same class, I also propose make all scrams and disruptors sized to thier class. A small scram has a strength of 1, a medium 2, and a large 3. A large can only be fit to a BS and so on. This would make it to where ships of equal size are always evenly matched, but the bigger ships get an advantage over the small ones when it comes to escaping.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#9 - 2015-12-10 06:24:10 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Howabout let's not marginalize smaller ships and instead push for design changes that maintain battleship's niche? More weapons to shoot little ships just crushes the usage of little ships while causing battleships to be better overall. Why don't we instead capitalize on what battleships already do best, and make them do that even better? For instance, battleships have the most hit points. Problem is, they just don't have a lot more than battlecruisers. So howabout buff battleship hit points?


Nothing is going to crush little ships, because speed is still the king of EVE and battleships don't have it. Giving battleships the ability to deal with them just makes little ships select their target more carefully, as opposed to just blobbing Tristans on anything and everything.


The ability to deal with fast ships with modules like, lets say webifiers & target painters?


Webifiers and target painters can all be circumnavigated. Target painters are a band aid for larger ships vs smaller ships, and a very limited one. They only affect signature radius, which still leaves transversal and velocity to evade your missile and gun damage. Webifiers are stupid easy to avoid. You are the faster, you control the range. Just stay out of web range. Problem solved.
FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-12-10 06:37:21 UTC
Not really sure that I'm on board with any of these proposed changes, but I agree that a battleship balance pass is warrented at this point. Here's to hoping it's sooner rather than later.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#11 - 2015-12-10 13:05:52 UTC
Some of you guys need to get out and PVP some more. BS do fine against frigates.

Some observations:
Painters can't be circumvented. You put a painter on someone and it works as described.

Webs weren't simple to avoid. Before this last patch you had to get in web range to scram a MJD fit BS. Now you can use a HIC, but that's a big enough ship that a BS can put the smack down on it. So if you want to scram a BS with a frigate - you have to get in web range (If you play the longer range faction scram card - I'll counter w/ the longer range faction web card - it's a wash). I know there are ships w/ hull bonus that get extended scram range - that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Here's a rule of thumb for pvp in eve. The smaller and faster a ship is - the more it lends to solo play. The bigger and slower a ship is - the more it requires support to be effective. That's just the way it is. The quest for a viable solo BS is folly. What's next? A viable solo dread that can pwn frigates? (nano phoon was the last solo BS and the moros was the last viable solo dread - It used to have a crazy drone bay).

BS are pretty balanced. A lot of folks just want them to be able to do things that they shouldn't. They don't need to warp faster and they don't need to wrfpwnt frigates.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#12 - 2015-12-10 14:37:27 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Some of you guys need to get out and PVP some more. BS do fine against frigates.

Some observations:
Painters can't be circumvented. You put a painter on someone and it works as described.

Webs weren't simple to avoid. Before this last patch you had to get in web range to scram a MJD fit BS. Now you can use a HIC, but that's a big enough ship that a BS can put the smack down on it. So if you want to scram a BS with a frigate - you have to get in web range (If you play the longer range faction scram card - I'll counter w/ the longer range faction web card - it's a wash). I know there are ships w/ hull bonus that get extended scram range - that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Here's a rule of thumb for pvp in eve. The smaller and faster a ship is - the more it lends to solo play. The bigger and slower a ship is - the more it requires support to be effective. That's just the way it is. The quest for a viable solo BS is folly. What's next? A viable solo dread that can pwn frigates? (nano phoon was the last solo BS and the moros was the last viable solo dread - It used to have a crazy drone bay).

BS are pretty balanced. A lot of folks just want them to be able to do things that they shouldn't. They don't need to warp faster and they don't need to wrfpwnt frigates.


I'd wager you need to PvP more. Battleships have been terrible and have been for some time. EVE has been constantly drifting further and further towards speed and range hulls for the last year, with no end in sight. The fact that HICs can now scram is only another symptom of this. It is not a cure, in fact the exact opposite. Now you don't need a paper thin Keres that might actually die. HICs have huge tanks on them and as long as you bring two repping them is a breeze.

BS are hardly balanced. They are dirt. They have no options when it comes to how they can fit for certain types of engagements. Battleship sized weapons, especially missiles, don't even apply damage well to other battleship sized hulls, let alone ships smaller. Everything you said is wrong.
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#13 - 2015-12-10 14:37:33 UTC
Valacus wrote:

Webifiers and target painters can all be circumnavigated. Target painters are a band aid for larger ships vs smaller ships, and a very limited one. They only affect signature radius, which still leaves transversal and velocity to evade your missile and gun damage. Webifiers are stupid easy to avoid. You are the faster, you control the range. Just stay out of web range. Problem solved.


Almost everything in eve can somehow be circumvented/circumnavigated.... almost everything has a counter.
Not every shiptype is supposed to have a fair fight against every other shiptype. choices matter in this game. if you fly a BS then avoid frig gangs. if they catch you... good for them. Pick your fights. Run if you have to.

-if the frigate stays out of web range the BS can use it's MJD... unless it's a bonused hull/faction scram.
-tagetpainter combined with webs do a good job.
-RHML are a thing. they kill cruisers quite easily.
-iirc all BS have at least 25mb bandwith. so most single frigs can't just hold you forever.
(if it has 125m3 dont bring 5 heavy drones. bring mediums/lights with some spare ones. 5 heavies look might look nice in EFT/Pyfa, med/lights are much more helpfull in pvp though).
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#14 - 2015-12-10 14:46:18 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Howabout let's not marginalize smaller ships and instead push for design changes that maintain battleship's niche? More weapons to shoot little ships just crushes the usage of little ships while causing battleships to be better overall. Why don't we instead capitalize on what battleships already do best, and make them do that even better? For instance, battleships have the most hit points. Problem is, they just don't have a lot more than battlecruisers. So howabout buff battleship hit points?


Nothing is going to crush little ships, because speed is still the king of EVE and battleships don't have it. Giving battleships the ability to deal with them just makes little ships select their target more carefully, as opposed to just blobbing Tristans on anything and everything.


The ability to deal with fast ships with modules like, lets say webifiers & target painters?


Webifiers and target painters can all be circumnavigated. Target painters are a band aid for larger ships vs smaller ships, and a very limited one. They only affect signature radius, which still leaves transversal and velocity to evade your missile and gun damage. Webifiers are stupid easy to avoid. You are the faster, you control the range. Just stay out of web range. Problem solved.

Was thinking along the same lines but my thoughts were painters and webs are OK for the one target at a time they will sort of work on. But what to do with the rest of the pack that is tearing you apart in the mean time. And adding EHP to the BS only delays the inevitable.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#15 - 2015-12-10 14:51:56 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Some of you guys need to get out and PVP some more. BS do fine against frigates.

Some observations:
Painters can't be circumvented. You put a painter on someone and it works as described.

Webs weren't simple to avoid. Before this last patch you had to get in web range to scram a MJD fit BS. Now you can use a HIC, but that's a big enough ship that a BS can put the smack down on it. So if you want to scram a BS with a frigate - you have to get in web range (If you play the longer range faction scram card - I'll counter w/ the longer range faction web card - it's a wash). I know there are ships w/ hull bonus that get extended scram range - that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Here's a rule of thumb for pvp in eve. The smaller and faster a ship is - the more it lends to solo play. The bigger and slower a ship is - the more it requires support to be effective. That's just the way it is. The quest for a viable solo BS is folly. What's next? A viable solo dread that can pwn frigates? (nano phoon was the last solo BS and the moros was the last viable solo dread - It used to have a crazy drone bay).

BS are pretty balanced. A lot of folks just want them to be able to do things that they shouldn't. They don't need to warp faster and they don't need to wrfpwnt frigates.


I'd wager you need to PvP more. Battleships have been terrible and have been for some time. EVE has been constantly drifting further and further towards speed and range hulls for the last year, with no end in sight. The fact that HICs can now scram is only another symptom of this. It is not a cure, in fact the exact opposite. Now you don't need a paper thin Keres that might actually die. HICs have huge tanks on them and as long as you bring two repping them is a breeze.

BS are hardly balanced. They are dirt. They have no options when it comes to how they can fit for certain types of engagements. Battleship sized weapons, especially missiles, don't even apply damage well to other battleship sized hulls, let alone ships smaller. Everything you said is wrong.


I've been ripping up w/ a bait macherial. Other guys I fly with have been ripping up w/ bait rattlers. The last bait rattler episode was 6 of us not jumping into the fight because the rattlesnake devoured just shy of a dozen BC as they trickled in. We just laughed as the bait ship narrated the destruction. He killed the whole kitchen sink.

A quick check of you kb tells me I've killed more ships w/ a mach in the last 3 days than you have TOTALL kills and losses. I'll bottom line it for you. You getting your raven ganked in null doesn't mean BS are bad and need changing. Don't tell me I need to PVP more. It's not your place. I don't mind taking criticism and advice from my peers - you're not one of them.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#16 - 2015-12-10 15:13:14 UTC
Mornak wrote:
Valacus wrote:

Webifiers and target painters can all be circumnavigated. Target painters are a band aid for larger ships vs smaller ships, and a very limited one. They only affect signature radius, which still leaves transversal and velocity to evade your missile and gun damage. Webifiers are stupid easy to avoid. You are the faster, you control the range. Just stay out of web range. Problem solved.


Almost everything in eve can somehow be circumvented/circumnavigated.... almost everything has a counter.
Not every shiptype is supposed to have a fair fight against every other shiptype. choices matter in this game. if you fly a BS then avoid frig gangs. if they catch you... good for them. Pick your fights. Run if you have to.

-if the frigate stays out of web range the BS can use it's MJD... unless it's a bonused hull/faction scram.
-tagetpainter combined with webs do a good job.
-RHML are a thing. they kill cruisers quite easily.
-iirc all BS have at least 25mb bandwith. so most single frigs can't just hold you forever.
(if it has 125m3 dont bring 5 heavy drones. bring mediums/lights with some spare ones. 5 heavies look might look nice in EFT/Pyfa, med/lights are much more helpfull in pvp though).



MJDs have a huge weakness, getting scrammed while spooling up puts the MJD on cooldown. You can do that without putting yourself in danger by using a flyby. I do it all the time, and even if I do get webbed/scrammed, I carry enough residual speed to kite out of range before I get brought down to a speed slow enough that the BS can hit me.

Target painter + web + scram + target being stupid is way too many situational advantages required just to hit a smaller ship. Even if battleships could punch down, without adequate tackle, your targets would still be able to escape because they control the range. The only difference is they wouldn't be able to evade your damage entirely by simply staying out of web range, which is extremely easy to do. Now they have to take damage if they want to point you at all, so they are at risk while tackling.

RHML are terrible at applying damage to frigates and mediocre when fighting cruisers. Granted, RHML are way better than any of the dual versions that turret based systems have, which still don't have the tracking required to effectively apply damage to ships a class underneath them. There aren't enough weapon systems like RHML and RLML. There needs to be more, and they need to be accessible by larger ships.

Drones are kiteable and easily so. Whenever drones stop to apply damage, they turn off their MWDs, so as soon as you see them go for damage, just move away again. Even if the drones are a threat to you, you can kill them yourself, or simply disengage. Yes, drones can be an effective punch down tool, but they're still limited and they should not be your one and only option.
Varyah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-12-10 16:01:33 UTC
Why not reverse the targeting speed curve?

I never understood why big ships that have ample room for gigantic sensor arrays have a harder time to lock a target then small ships. Having large guns doesn't make you half blind.

It won't hurt smaller ships if battleships can lock faster because they can't hit them anyways.

Battleships take longer time to appear on grid, still enough time to run, even if battleships can lock faster.

It would give battleships an advantage in fights with lots of targets where target switching is more important which tend to be more stationary anyways while small fast ships still have the advantage of being more agile and harder to hit.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#18 - 2015-12-10 17:07:16 UTC
Varyah wrote:
Why not reverse the targeting speed curve?

I never understood why big ships that have ample room for gigantic sensor arrays have a harder time to lock a target then small ships. Having large guns doesn't make you half blind.

It won't hurt smaller ships if battleships can lock faster because they can't hit them anyways.

Battleships take longer time to appear on grid, still enough time to run, even if battleships can lock faster.

It would give battleships an advantage in fights with lots of targets where target switching is more important which tend to be more stationary anyways while small fast ships still have the advantage of being more agile and harder to hit.



I've said the same several times over the years. A lot more explosions would occur. Sadly a lot of folks are against more explosions.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#19 - 2015-12-10 17:15:55 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Varyah wrote:
Why not reverse the targeting speed curve?

I never understood why big ships that have ample room for gigantic sensor arrays have a harder time to lock a target then small ships. Having large guns doesn't make you half blind.

It won't hurt smaller ships if battleships can lock faster because they can't hit them anyways.

Battleships take longer time to appear on grid, still enough time to run, even if battleships can lock faster.

It would give battleships an advantage in fights with lots of targets where target switching is more important which tend to be more stationary anyways while small fast ships still have the advantage of being more agile and harder to hit.



I've said the same several times over the years. A lot more explosions would occur. Sadly a lot of folks are against more explosions.


It's legacy from the days when tracking was not applied and a Tempest's could alphapop anything it could get a lock on. It probably could do with being looked at.

I personally think they should just give all ships +2 au/s warp speed. BS will still be amongst the slowest hulls but moving through systems will not be such a painful experience.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#20 - 2015-12-10 17:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mornak
Valacus wrote:
MJDs have a huge weakness, getting scrammed while spooling up puts the MJD on cooldown. You can do that without putting yourself in danger by using a flyby. I do it all the time, and even if I do get webbed/scrammed, I carry enough residual speed to kite out of range before I get brought down to a speed slow enough that the BS can hit me.

Target painter + web + scram + target being stupid is way too many situational advantages required just to hit a smaller ship. Even if battleships could punch down, without adequate tackle, your targets would still be able to escape because they control the range. The only difference is they wouldn't be able to evade your damage entirely by simply staying out of web range, which is extremely easy to do. Now they have to take damage if they want to point you at all, so they are at risk while tackling.

RHML are terrible at applying damage to frigates and mediocre when fighting cruisers. Granted, RHML are way better than any of the dual versions that turret based systems have, which still don't have the tracking required to effectively apply damage to ships a class underneath them. There aren't enough weapon systems like RHML and RLML. There needs to be more, and they need to be accessible by larger ships.

Drones are kiteable and easily so. Whenever drones stop to apply damage, they turn off their MWDs, so as soon as you see them go for damage, just move away again. Even if the drones are a threat to you, you can kill them yourself, or simply disengage. Yes, drones can be an effective punch down tool, but they're still limited and they should not be your one and only option.


Yeah, i get your point. But if you can easily kite drones and dive in for a scram when you see the MJD spoolup without getting tackled by web+scram... well, to me that sounds a lot like an ceptor or a frigate fitted to do a ceptors work. The sole purpuse of these ships is point and survive. Not even Cruisers are supposed get rid of them too easily.

If you give BSs a weaponsystem that can get rid of ceptors, then you'd have to gimp its damage to big targets quite a lot.

This is imho one of the main problems with RLML/RHML... there just to good against small stuff but still ok against equal size targets. Only if you know that you'll fight your size and up will other weaponsystems be an option. ...I for one dont remember the last time i saw a HAM Caracal in pvp (might change with missile guidence-things, not sure though).

You can already fit small/medium guns/launchers on BSs... the damage should be enough to kill a ceptor, but the guns underperform against anything close to your size.
A RLML Raven should be able to kill a ceptor in no time. You wont get through the tank of an active tanked BS though.

If a megathron has full bonused medium blasters, then it would do comparable DPS to a damage-fit Brutix (this is just an estimate, i'd have to check this to be sure).

So instead of ~1200-1300DPS with large guns you'd do ~900-1000DPS with mediums. So unless i need the Range of large guns, i would most like go with the medium ones most of the time, the damage application is just so much better.
On top of that, you'd have a huge amount of cpu/pg left for tank, double/tripple-prop and other nice things the large gun mega can not fit.

I think that would just "unbalance" things in the other direction and make 'traditional' BSs a rare sight...
123Next pageLast page