Player Features and Ideas Discussion

unique for the sake of it isn't great balancing

Removing something unique without any real grounds for it isn't great balancing. What is your argument for removing the RLML? You stated you simply desired there to be similar options for missiles as turrets, which is fine, but I do not see why RLML would need to be removed in that case?

I would argue against that, and stats would show it to be factually incorrect.

Orthrus will all skills 5 gets 325 dps with fury rapids, and no other modules.
Raven gets 223, despite having 1 more launcher.

However, what you will notice is that battleships do not receive range and application bonuses to heavy missiles.
Cruisers, on the other hand, do receive range and application bonuses to lights.

Not to mention the removal of the only PVP viable missile system outside of the alliance tournament.

Well assuming the Caracal pilot isn't brain dead, he'll be shooting precision, or at least navy, not fury. Which puts your example at 237 applied DPS vs. 1mn Tristan and 164 DPS vs. 10mn Tristan. So to answer you question, no, that's significantly more applied DPS than most frigates (and much more than any tristan can tank for long).

Not to mention the caracal is one of the least powerful RLM ships (orthrus, tengu, cerb, scythe fleet, etc.). If you go ahead and slap a target painter on there (yes, I know turret ships can use them too, but it's pretty standard for a caracal and can't be avoided by staying out of range), you're up to 283 dps against a 1mn tristan. 333 DPS if you overheat. These numbers don't sound high for cruiser DPS, but applied against a frigate they are huge.

Also think about the frigate's fitting choices - assuming he knows he wants to counter RLM. 10mn is the best sig tank, but it cripples your own tank/DPS so it's not a common choice. 1mn offers a bit of sig tank, but not enough to keep you alive and ruins your range control so the caracal can hold you or chase you down easily. 5mn doesn't offer any sig tank and won't help you outrun the range on a caracal - you're gonna go down fast anywhere inside it's 60km range (unless going garmur speeds and you are outrunning missiles).

So you can argue that RLM should be a hard counter to frigates and thus are balanced. But you cannot argue that they are not effective against frigates. Because that's just not true. They are very effective. They are quantifiably the most effective weapon system there is against frigates, except maybe bonused light drones. And they are also the most flexible, in terms of engagement range and piloting.

If range on the RLML is an issue, then the same is true for any LM frigate/destroyer.
Perhaps the real issue here is LM's have too much range for a Frigate weapon system?

LM Max range is 42km. Realistic expectations of that are at about 35km though.
Best rails come in at 25KM with skills including falloff. (18k Optimal, 7k fall off or there about). And rails have the downside if something gets close you can't hit them.

Congratulations, you've taken a range bonused hull, and then applied about 4 range buffs onto it as well.
You can do exactly the same thing to missiles though. And end up far further out.

Taking the most extreme range fit you can find doesn't change the fact that LM's have a vastly longer range than any other weapon in their class. And that is what gives the RLML such a large envelope and makes it such a no brainer especially compared to the current state of HAM's & HM's.

If LM's in general were more comparable to other frigate weapons for ranges, RLML Cruisers would not be such a no brainer as they would be giving more up relative to HM's.
Might this then need some other tweaks to keep Frig vs Frig in balance. Possibly.

As if the game wasn't already biased enough towards frigates and cruisers. Let's start nerfin anti-frigate weapons. Uhm, no. They're doing their job. If anything we need more anti-speed, anti-kite weapon systems and support modules, not less.

Please put a ship and fit to show your rail numbers. Until you do, this seems like garbage.

The game has been constantly drifting towards faster, smaller hulls with ranged weapons for almost a year now with no end in sight. Now we have logi frigates, T3Ds with stupid tank and DPS, and HICs that can scram at absurd ranges, all without eliminating off grid boosting so the problems are compounded 10 fold. Not to mention a much need Svipul nerf. Battleships don't even have a real place in EVE right now, other than running incursions. I don't understand CCPs massive aversion against ships that can punch down even just one ship class. Why shouldn't battleships have the ability to deal with smaller prey if they are specifically fit for it? They will effectively be surrendering their ability to fight against other similarly sized ships in return, which I think is a fair trade off. You're prepped to kill cruisers and frigs, so other battleships or battlecruisers are now a huge threat to you because you can't match their raw damage. We already know things like battleships and battlecruisers can't effectively hunt smaller ships because they move slow, warp slow, and most importantly lock slow, so smaller ships have adequate amounts of time to get away. Making larger ships able to punch down just forces smaller ships to choose their targets more carefully, and also gives gangs more options to bring to the table. A battleship or battlecruiser could be a huge asset if it could be made to effectively destroy smaller ships, likewise it could be just as much of an asset if you're expecting the other gang to bring larger ships specifically designed to kill your smaller ships, so you fit your battleships/cruisers to shoot other battleships/cruisers.