EVE General Discussion

I am simply pointing out that subscription models are rare these days and not the norm.

The business model does not work for most people.

Now EVE has f2p now but it's only free if you spent more time than is worth it for most people.

And there are so many f2p games out there competing for time, you cannot expect people to play this full time.

Personally I don't care if EVE goes true F2P but I might play it more often if it did.

You're stating a whole lot of things you have no idea on and are so obviously catering for your short sighted personal wish list for EVE it's not even funny. So please, you're not fooling anyone but perhaps yourself.

No it won't, also you changed your stance quite a bit from earlier. There is of course nothing wrong with advocating for better PVE but to go "see, this is why EVE is dying" is hilarious. For most of its time EVE pop has grown, quite a bit, before EVE decided that they'd want to be a mainstream game and while there have been some setbacks those had nothing to do with the pve vs pvp debate.

Then EVE started to adapt to cater for the non-efforts, the dumbs, the people who really had no place in EVE. PVE got massively boosted, mining got boosted, recently manufacturing and related got massively boosted. Nothing wrong with improvements but that doesn't necessarily mean they should change stuff to cater for the non-efforts. Did that help? No, all that happened is the people who joined thinking that EVE is a viable full PVE game realised that it's not, got grumpy and left again. Even AFTER all those non-pvp buffs. So yes, PVE players leave more than PVP players.

Then there's PVE focussed players who simply moved on, as people do, to other games because they can and because there's alternatives. Nothing wrong with that, has to be expected. Thing is, for PVP players there ARE no alternatives so we're still here. So yes, PVE players leave more than PVP players.


You for instance, you're from 2009 so from when CCP decided they wanted to be WOW in space and 5 years later you STILL somehow lose mission ships to hostiles, a Machariel to a Kronos wtf, and you STILL haven't learned how to decently fit a ship. That has nothing to do with the game not being PVE enough, that has to do with "EVE is hard, it's harder if you're stupid" and there is no point in trying to change the game enough to keep people like that playing. They either stick around or they leave, so be it.

Then we get to your "see there's more pve players than pvp" which is of course a fallacy. A VAST majority of pvpers have high sec mission/mining alts, and lots of them, because it makes sense in many ways. Counting them as PVE players is hilarious because... they're alts, not independent PVE players.

And now your recent "PvE content must be generated by players" is of course just smoke and mirrors, at least you hope it is. It isn't, we see right through it. Again, nothing wrong with wanting better PVE as such but your logic, reasoning and agenda are all wrong, very obviously so.



The reasons EVE is in a dip right now are pretty obvious:

- people stop trusting CCP because they keep making the wrong decisions or take way too much time to decide anything at all. This has to do with them listening to idiots and trying to defend themselves against competitors like ED and SC. And no matter how much you try to explain to them that a) they're not competitors because they're not a PVP centric massive sandbox and b) the people who will like SC more than EVE will leave anyway because CCP can't change the game enough to retain them, they keep trying anyway. They keep making dumb decisions by instead of being proud of their niche, improving and nurturing it, they water down the game to be more generic. Never going to work, I explained above why that is.

- CCP made capital (alts) less viable, a good decision imo but the repercussion is of course that people are going to close down alt accounts. If you didn't see that coming or don't understand that logic then nothing can help you

- plex prices are silly high thus people will close alt accounts. As simple and logical as "1+1=2", you don't need all kinds of boogieman stories like "see, not enough PVE"

- terribles making 40k man coalitions making 0.0 stagnant and boring. Has nothing to do with game mechanics, it worked fine before, but with them being terribles.

- have you seen many bots lately? I haven't either


Those are just a few explanations as to why EVE is in a dip PCU wise, none of those have to do with "PVE SUCKS, WOE IS ME!". But IS EVE In a dip? I'd say that it's healthy and just shed deadweight, nothing wrong with that they just need to regain focus and plough on.



I can easily name 5-10 PVE-related buffs in the last 5 years and that is only counting the big ones. Can you name any PVP related buffs from that same time frame? Exactly, stop whining and stop thinking your amazing logic and construed reasoning makes sense or isn't hilariously obvious.

The few we know about player retention denies that. EVE is by no means a easier game now that each patch adds new stuff for new players to concern themselves while they're still getting the grasp of the game's 12 years old essentials. Adding new content for veterans continuously moves the goal post for "minimal required knwoldge" for new players... so NO, EVE is NOT easier.



First I am from 2008. And second, that PvP loss was a criminal flag bait. For obvious reasons, baits and scams work the first time and never again. And for that specific baiter, that kill costed him the ability to kill any targets while I was online, and 168 million in loot since Ish happens to be a proficent ninja looter.



You're absolutely wrong.

This is the truth of what do indivdual subscribers do with their accounts and characters.

Professionals (do everything): 30%
Entrepreneurs (do PvE and industry, barely move from highsec): 25%
Traditionals (play EVE as a ordinary MMO): 25%
Social (mostly socialize and skillqueue online) 12%
Aggressors (mostly do PvP): 8%

Those are CCP data from Fanfest 2015. As you may notice, PvP is irrelevant to Traditionals and a very minor acivity to Entrepreneurs, and is almost non-existant to Socials (since they barely undock...). That's 62% of individuals who don't pay CCP for PvP since they don't engage in PvP, but may suffer it occasionally.

These Fanfest data just confirmed what every PvEr aware of her environment already knew. EVE is not a PvP game, not by the numbers. And that is in blatant contradiction to what PvPrs think of themselves and the game, and what CCP used to think about the game. "PvP" is branding, but the real product is PvE. Car makers advertise solitary roads and cool landscapes, not traffic jams in ugly suburbs. But the real product is John Doe watching car tails for an hour while he conmutes to his job...

No matter how you paint it, PvE is the most important thing in EVE and the one that performs the worst. It may not be what makes EVE to be EVE, but certainly is what pays the bills. And without PvE money there's no EVE nor CCP as we know them.

Do you have a quote on this? That PvE has the lowest retention population wide? Seems to me that you are coupling the data saying 62% of the PCU number do PvE, with the data from one of the fanfests on why new players leave, to make that conclusion. That would be pretty manipulative if this is the case. If I am right in the above you are coupling whole population demograhics with the reasons of why a small non-representative group leaves the game. If you were a politician in RL or a scientist, twisting data like that would get you fired or forced to resign, at least where I live.

You IMO (If I am right about the above) also manipulate with the conclusion from fanfest concerning the NPE. The conclusion of the new player experience was that retention is higher if they join a corp. Not that PvE made them leave. Being alone made them leave. There are PvE corps out there doing fine.

I assume she's talking about the uncreative and braindead people who join to level up their raven ...
... and then leave bored after reaching that point.

To be fair, I believe that many of them just don't get to know any better ...
... because people like her would make new players do exactly that, further killing the game.

It's CCPs fault as well for letting people start with PvE and mining ...
... and not providing better things to do, or starter areas in lowsec.

Players would kill each other to recruit all the new blood. Yet, as soon as I mention this,
mindless people come and declare that everyone would just kill the new players all day.

Which is batshit crazy talk.

And let's not forget that drifters are an active attempt to bring PvE and PvP together ...
... by forcing players to actually plan, think and use PvP fittings to deal with them.


One more proof that CCP doesn't hate PvE, but also knows that it's not what the game is about.

The drifters unite us... or at least that seems to be the intention.

It's better than nothing though. PvErs can't complqin about the lack of challenge,
PvPers can find i terest in actually challenging PvE.

Don't forget that PvPers do PvE, but PvErs don't do PvP.

Tbh this is all that's needed to realize which type of player has more value ...

F2P is worth a serious look, because other players are content.
Grinding Gear Games figured this one out, and have done pretty well for themselves selling almost nothing but microtransaction shinies in Path of Exile. You can go to level 100 in that game without spending a single penny if you want, and there's no way that game would have gotten off the ground as subscription-only or even an SWTOR-style nagware game. In practice, trade with other players and vendor recipes tend to require buying stash tabs, but that's not where they make most of their money.

F2P would seriously break EVE unless a lot of stuff got hidden behind paywalls or rethought-particularly mining, industry, PI, and missions.

It's about finding ways to give an incentive for customers to part with their money.

EvE is no different, PLEX and now skins (28 PLEX and free skins) . Main difference with EvE is it's still very much subscription based. It's just that EvE is an older game and as yet it doesn't have many things in the shop to entice people to part with their money. Except with PLEX, as it's the fastest way for a player to give themselves an isk boost. When you can buy sp for isk that should also boost PLEX sales.

So EvE isn't as different as you would like to believe.




They won't make much money from poor people, poorer people tend to play F2P because that's all they can afford. They make money from those that have it, the richer people where money (the amounts spent in-game isn't really an issue to them).

Collections is one thing companies have latched onto, as some people like to collect things, like vanity pets for instance.

Armor skins/clothing that you can only get from the shop, to give customers a way to dress differently so they might have a chance to stand out from the crowd. Ship skins in this game is the equivalent of armor skins and character clothing is just the same as character clothing in this game.

Sometimes people just like to show off their wealth, buying exclusive products is the way they do it, no different to real life.






More games have an F2P element these days as companies realise it's better than just having a limited trial period.

You could argue those that choose to spend large parts of their life in a virtual world rather than the real world are the sad ones, especially if they don't have a disability that restrict them in real life.

But people can choose what they want to do with their life so are they really sad in that case?