Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

Come back to me when you have two specialized supercapital alts and 2 specialized logi-carrier alts. Thats a lot of training time and isk used.

We are told to forget about what we use/trained and go use something else, that frankly, is NOT what most of us spent a long time training for.

I really can't understand how people don't understand this... So i'll dumb it down for them: You specialized your character for a command ship/t3 cruiser to be the best off-grid booster you can be. Suddenly the ship(s) you use no longer have that role. You are told to go train for another ship to do this.

Now take that and put it into capital level training, which is VERY long.

Yeah... not a good move. So people asking for SP reimbursement, or even 'what should i be training now' isn't asking for much.

Some of us even have carrier V, capital V, titan V and all the capital support skills maxed out... those are not quick trains. So yeah we are worried about the changes, especially when those changes are forced. Most people are simply asking for another option, just in case, its not what we trained for. CCP even said they might 'convert' existing carriers to those new FAX if a triage module is installed. Thats a pretty good idea tbh.

Why? I feel like I've been making payments for something and now they are giving me something else. That is a really bad business practice.

Did they? What do they say when they make less money?

These changes aren't going to change the risk averse nature of capital warfare, if anything much of it encourages risk averse practices - Especially for the big groups.
Why would you bother training for a ship you are likely to never use? (I have an idea why but would like to hear your opinion)

You said yourself you have a max skilled Titan you don't use now, what do you expect to change?

I would like CCP to offer reimbursement so I can put time spent/SP into something i can reasonably expect to use (without the need to become just another blobber).

"I would like CCP to offer reimbursement so I can put time spent/SP into something i can reasonably expect to use (without the need to become just another blobber)."

CCP is working on a mechanism for liquidating skills you no longer feel you need.

Problem solved?

Good for you, but you are the minority as shown in the threads concerning this and how capital/super capital pilots have responded.

Also you ignore a HUGE point: there no adapting when your ship role/stats are completly changed. We are not talking about tweaking specs but a COMPLETE change. It's only normal to give its pilots a chance to recuperate its SP or adapt its SP (start training the new skills in advance) to accommodate the changes. Heck, even swapping triage carriers to FAX.

It's been done numerous times before, this should be the same, if not more, considering the level of SP/time required for capitals/super capitals.

Command ship changes, original super capital changes, learning skills changes, list goes on.

Been around since 2003, seen it all done by CCP. The good and the bad. Which is why it's important for players to express the self, and then do it again.




Not in this case. It would cost billions of isk. Probably 20-30 billion isk to swap the skills.

I don't believe any SP was rearranged for command ships or super capitals. The only times I can think of any SP switching around or being refunded, were the learning skills or when server death was extensive.

So "numerous" isn't really the word I would use to describe the pattern. Especially considering there are hundreds of other examples where nothing for compensated for drastic change.

At best you might see battlecruisers 2.0, where it gets split into seperate skills and the "old" one is eliminated.

You two really do deserve each other, of course FT your wrong and Rowells is just not looking at the issue from the right point of view.
Rowells got closer than you, he at least mentioned one of the times players were given SP due to changes in skill tree, he did however forget, carrier skills are already racial so CCP would be giving equivalent skills for a whole new class of ship.

You just ran off in a direction that is not at all relevant and "try" to make it seem like it is close to the same thing.

When they nerfed the Ishtar - Was every skill you trained to use it still relevant to the ship?

When tracking titans got nerfed - Were the skill sets required to use it still applicable or was the basic function of the ship changed and you had skills that were trained no longer needed to fly a titan?

When they remove all logistics roles from carriers - Will all the skills you trained to fly and use the ship still be relevant, to carriers? Logistics 5, Triage, capital remote reps, capital energy emission systems, all those skills will still be useful while flying the ship (carrier) you trained them for?

This isn't a simple change to the skill tree or a reduction in tracking - These skill sets are being completely removed from the ship classes they were trained for. So your saying CCP should give every capital pilot who can use capital remote modules the equivalent skills to fly the brand new class of ship being released. 4 new ships, hundreds of thousands of characters already have the prerequisites for, so should be able to fly them at the time of release.
"If you could fly it before you could fly it after", so, If you had the skill to use something before you should still be able to use it after.
That is a lot of SP CCP would be handing out

That is a lot of skill point bloat when handed out to every player who has carrier logistics skills trained.

Or they could avoid more SP bloat by turning capital logistics skills into unallocated SP.
What is happening is the same as when Destroyer and Battle cruiser skills were made racial, 1 skill to 5 gave you 4 skills to 5 (CCP handed out SP). Two skills gave access to 4 ships in each class - Capital remote skills do the same, but giving everyone the same skill to fly 4 racial Fax, is a little over the top.

SP bloat is only an issue when you don't have the skills. more classes being split and more SP to train creates a longer road from start to finish. With the removal of clone costs, a character does not have to worry about having 50mil SP vs 100mil SP assuming the two are equal in relative usage.

Its less of an addition of an entirely different class, more of an addition to an existing class (and then the subsequent seperation: that argument is semantical). Sort of like the Tier3 battlecruiser introduction. A whole new ship that people had already maxed out on. Or (if i recall my history correctly) similar to super carrier skill tree direction. Uses the same skill as a normal carrier, for a different purpose. The bloat will mostly be felt by the pervailing assumptions of what certain levels of SP mean. "I have 50mil SP, has a bit of a different cannotation than it did back in 2003. And honestly, if CCP is in this game for the long-haul, it will be unnavoidable. Hard to keep that excitement and awe in players when the blocks are always the same.

I really do believe that they will simply give you the equivalent racial skill for the new FAX rather than having fresh set of SP to train on anything completely unrelated. Gallente Carrier IV will get you Gallente FAX IV and so on.

On the other hand, they could easily add them like bowheads, and no skills you had would allow you to fly it right away. However, I do see some desire fro the devs to make this transition more smooth and less abrubt than simply stopping all triage capabilities for a few days/weeks while everyone trains to do it. So, I'll lean my guesses more in that favor.

The real key here is not that the are removing a role per se, but a module. The only ship that can use triage is the carrier, and removing it from the character is just short of actually deleting it from the database in terms of usability. If CCP were to only add a new FAX skill which you had to train, it would suck, but not entirely too bad (unless you trained carrier to V and expected V in FAX).

And I am somewhat unfovarable towards the argument that if a ship no longer needs a certain skill, you should get it back, with the caveat that the skill can still be used elsewhere. It definitely hurts more for people who use supers (seeing as a flying coffin was never fun to begin with), but with citadels coming out at the same time, the time between not being able to use RR skills on your coffin and being able to leave that coffin will be relatively short. So long as CCP continues down the path of removing the necessity of sitting in the coffin (maybe to almost complete removal at some point), then the argument of the flexibility of that character will lose its strength.

TL;DR there are precedents leaning mostly one way, and counterexamples leaning in wuite another, so it will mostly depend on how the siotuation is finally interpreted by the man in charge.

offtopic: did they ever confirm/deny if supers would be able to get insurance now?