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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Karmilla Strife
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#141 - 2015-12-05 23:44:48 UTC
Only idiots fight fair.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#142 - 2015-12-06 00:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Deitra Vess wrote:
Also, he won't repent for seeing "honorable fighting." One person's honorable fight is another person's foolish fight. Throwing your crew members into fights you most likely will lose will only prove his red god's "might" even further.


Karmilla Strife wrote:
Only idiots fight fair.


Respectfully, while, as a matter of principle, I don't duel, I don't think it's always an empty gesture.

The point here isn't to kill Nauplius. Killing him temporarily barely inconveniences him; killing him permanently is not an achievable goal for any of us. However, there may be victories to be won outside of pure economic damage.

Approaching an honor duel honorably is not about anything ephemeral; it's about making the victory count. The challenger here is a relative unknown, and lacks Nauplius' experience. Considering their relative strength, she doesn't lose much for a loss relative to what he stands to lose if he fails. It's about the only sort of victory that might even get Nauplius to reexamine his beliefs, especially if she ever starts beating him consistently. Really, she gains a little credit even if she never wins for just being tenacious, so long as she keeps it up. But it has to be clean, or the whole point of the thing is lost.

For my own part, I'll never duel him. I don't have anything to prove in such a way. Tamiroth does, though, and multiple ways to prove it.

Being careful about how crew are selected might be wise, though. Neither pilot's life is at stake, but other people's are.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#143 - 2015-12-06 00:42:50 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Respectfully, while, as a matter of principle, I don't duel, I don't think it's always an empty gesture.

The point here isn't to kill Nauplius. Killing him temporarily barely inconveniences him; killing him permanently is not an achievable goal for any of us. However, there may be victories to be won outside of pure economic damage.

Approaching an honor duel honorably is not about anything ephemeral; it's about making the victory count. The challenger here is a relative unknown, and lacks Nauplius' experience. Considering their relative strength, she doesn't lose much for a loss relative to what he stands to lose if he fails. It's about the only sort of victory that might even get Nauplius to reexamine his beliefs, especially if she ever starts beating him consistently. Really, she gains a little credit even if she never wins for just being tenacious, so long as she keeps it up. But it has to be clean, or the whole point of the thing is lost.

For my own part, I'll never duel him. I don't have anything to prove in such a way. Tamiroth does, though, and multiple ways to prove it.

Being careful about how crew are selected might be wise, though. Neither pilot's life is at stake, but other people's are.


I know what your saying but how many times have we bashed his towers and he blamed it on his little croustation god or whatever (mollusk the deciever or malok.... Whatever, I don't pretend to know your religion, Amarr). Even if she managed an honorable victory it would be fluffed off as "Mullick the deceiver helped her in trying to beat the all mighty red god..... Bwahahaha." If your going to fight him, stoop to his level. He won't be phased by anything less. Make the loss as personal as possible. After all he's done it should be.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#144 - 2015-12-06 00:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Cpt. Tamiroth Alet Azaph has already won over the heretic called Nauplius in innumerable ways:

He placed himself in service to Lies, Ugliness and Evil - all of them being ultimately nothing: mere deficiencies, not existing for themselves but only in comparison to what could be, what is lacked, rather being the lack of something than being something at all.

She placed herself in service to Truth, Beauty and Goodness eternal - the bountiful fullness of creation and existence, her still continuing struggle against him being only a small part of this.

A simple victory in a battle of ships means little in comparison and this is truely not what this struggle is about: It's an example of standing up for what is good and right, to serve faithfully. That's not to say we all should vow the same: Rather we should all find inspiration in this example to confront the darkness - within or without ourselves - that we can make a stand against: To burn and live, to fear not, to be light. To spread the light throughout creation.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#145 - 2015-12-06 02:27:50 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:

You aren't that naive to think he's returning the same sentiment are you? Don't be silly. He more than likely has links, a head full of inplants and boosters as his "honor."


No. I have only the Red God.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#146 - 2015-12-06 02:34:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Nauplius wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:

You aren't that naive to think he's returning the same sentiment are you? Don't be silly. He more than likely has links, a head full of inplants and boosters as his "honor."


No. I have only the Red God.


See, I actually believe Nauplius on this. This is partly a trial of his faith. It's one sort of contest you're really ill-advised to cheat at, if you are yourself a believer and not just someone manipulating them.

There's a lot of stuff Nauplius does that doesn't make any sense without him being a true believer, so....

Now, what's quite possible is that if he loses he'll attribute it to foul play, whether it really was or not, so it's probably wise to avoid even the appearance of trickery.

Also, the "faith" issue cuts both ways, here. Neither is going to want to prove their own faith weak by resorting to honorless tactics.
Maria Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#147 - 2015-12-06 03:17:12 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:

You aren't that naive to think he's returning the same sentiment are you? Don't be silly. He more than likely has links, a head full of inplants and boosters as his "honor."


No. I have only the Red God.


*doubtfully* Pinkie swear no Implants?
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#148 - 2015-12-06 03:59:10 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Also, the "faith" issue cuts both ways, here. Neither is going to want to prove their own faith weak by resorting to honorless tactics.

If your faith is so weak you cannot bring along links and a neutral Falcon pilot, something is wrong.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#149 - 2015-12-06 04:21:59 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Also, the "faith" issue cuts both ways, here. Neither is going to want to prove their own faith weak by resorting to honorless tactics.

If your faith is so weak you cannot bring along links and a neutral Falcon pilot, something is wrong.


Making your own luck in such a way doesn't seem like much of an act of faith, respectfully, Ms. Vea.

Duels should be honored. Like promises.

It's why I never fight them.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#150 - 2015-12-06 06:08:18 UTC
I trust in God to keep the planets in orbit and the stars burning. The tactical situation is mine to worry about.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#151 - 2015-12-06 06:38:33 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
I trust in God to keep the planets in orbit and the stars burning. The tactical situation is mine to worry about.


The Winds help those who help themselves, I agree.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Vikarion
Doomheim
#152 - 2015-12-06 08:22:57 UTC
Nauplius wrote:

No. I have only the Red God.


You talk too much.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#153 - 2015-12-06 10:14:14 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Respectfully, while, as a matter of principle, I don't duel, I don't think it's always an empty gesture.

The point here isn't to kill Nauplius. Killing him temporarily barely inconveniences him; killing him permanently is not an achievable goal for any of us. However, there may be victories to be won outside of pure economic damage.

Approaching an honor duel honorably is not about anything ephemeral; it's about making the victory count. The challenger here is a relative unknown, and lacks Nauplius' experience. Considering their relative strength, she doesn't lose much for a loss relative to what he stands to lose if he fails. It's about the only sort of victory that might even get Nauplius to reexamine his beliefs, especially if she ever starts beating him consistently. Really, she gains a little credit even if she never wins for just being tenacious, so long as she keeps it up. But it has to be clean, or the whole point of the thing is lost.

For my own part, I'll never duel him. I don't have anything to prove in such a way. Tamiroth does, though, and multiple ways to prove it.

Being careful about how crew are selected might be wise, though. Neither pilot's life is at stake, but other people's are.


I know what your saying but how many times have we bashed his towers and he blamed it on his little croustation god or whatever (mollusk the deciever or malok.... Whatever, I don't pretend to know your religion, Amarr). Even if she managed an honorable victory it would be fluffed off as "Mullick the deceiver helped her in trying to beat the all mighty red god..... Bwahahaha." If your going to fight him, stoop to his level. He won't be phased by anything less. Make the loss as personal as possible. After all he's done it should be.


Bashing his towers, is akin to killing him, or a capsuleer for that matters. It is futile, and counter productive to the goal you seek to achieve.

They all strive on popularity, and public visibility. Make them irrelevant by not caring, and they will disappear into oblivion, either out of boredom, or something else.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#154 - 2015-12-06 16:08:52 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Bashing his towers, is akin to killing him, or a capsuleer for that matters. It is futile, and counter productive to the goal you seek to achieve.

They all strive on popularity, and public visibility. Make them irrelevant by not caring, and they will disappear into oblivion, either out of boredom, or something else.

Though, as noted, suuolo, Nauplius does stuff you can't expect people not to care about.

It's why dueling him seems like a better option.

(The best option might involve CONCORD and a kill switch, but they don't seem to like to clarify whether they can really do that to us, and they seem kind of thick-skinned about massacres, so....)
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#155 - 2015-12-06 16:39:30 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
I trust in God to keep the planets in orbit and the stars burning. The tactical situation is mine to worry about.


The Winds help those who help themselves, I agree.


And, again, I agree-- except that this is, explicitly, a series of honor duels.

Speaking from my own perspective, "honor" is a matter of my own integrity. It's one of the core values I hold myself to: I don't cheat. If I make a promise, I try very hard to keep it. If I were to be untrue to that principle, I'd lose a little of myself. Maybe more than a little.

You are making this all sound pretty naiive, but actually I think that mostly means you don't understand the situation. Nauplius and Tamiroth likely both look at their faith kind of the way I look at my integrity, as something core to their respective identities. If either were a little less spiritualistic, maybe they'd see things more "pragmatically," but that doesn't seem to be the case.

They're both the sorts to take this seriously. That's what gives this situation meaning beyond just killing The Butcher one more time. Breaking the rules drains the whole exercise of purpose.

There's no reason to fight this way in the first place if they're going to cheat. For either of them, I think (I might be wrong in Nauplius's case, but he's not exactly ... uh, sneaky?).

I prefer a battlefield without rules, where every resource can be brought to bare. Ambush is a basic capsuleer tactic, and I think I might even enjoy it more than most. But I'm not about to go around telling people I'm going to abide by rules, then break them. If people engage me, thinking they have an easy kill, only to find out differently, that's one thing. I never owed them a fair fight.

If I made a promise, though....

Pieter ... I understand that this is something that sort of quietly gets debated within PY-RE, but I'm with Mayrin, here. As mercenaries, our word has to count for something-- even leaving out my own issues about integrity and personal identity, that's just good business, right? If you agree to a duel, you really ought to honor it.

If you're going to cheat, you shouldn't be dueling in the first place.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#156 - 2015-12-06 18:52:13 UTC
Well, I guess some actually make use of the duel concept as a tool to their end, meaning, cheating and getting the upper hand.

It is not that far from a scam, all in all.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#157 - 2015-12-06 20:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Lyn Farel wrote:
Well, I guess some actually make use of the duel concept as a tool to their end, meaning, cheating and getting the upper hand.

It is not that far from a scam, all in all.


Plenty. I just don't care to be that person, and I kind of doubt either of the combatants here do, either.

Nauplius seems to be more or less honest, even if that means he's just honestly awful.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#158 - 2015-12-06 23:01:51 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
I trust in God to keep the planets in orbit and the stars burning. The tactical situation is mine to worry about.


The Winds help those who help themselves, I agree.


And, again, I agree-- except that this is, explicitly, a series of honor duels.

Speaking from my own perspective, "honor" is a matter of my own integrity. It's one of the core values I hold myself to: I don't cheat. If I make a promise, I try very hard to keep it. If I were to be untrue to that principle, I'd lose a little of myself. Maybe more than a little.

You are making this all sound pretty naiive, but actually I think that mostly means you don't understand the situation. Nauplius and Tamiroth likely both look at their faith kind of the way I look at my integrity, as something core to their respective identities.


You make it sound as though you actually believe Nauplius's sincerity. You shouldn't. Nothing we've seen indicates that he actually believes in anything more than his own sadistic fun.
Tamiroth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#159 - 2015-12-06 23:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tamiroth
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Cpt. Tamiroth Alet Azaph has already won over the heretic called Nauplius in innumerable ways:

He placed himself in service to Lies, Ugliness and Evil - all of them being ultimately nothing: mere deficiencies, not existing for themselves but only in comparison to what could be, what is lacked, rather being the lack of something than being something at all.

She placed herself in service to Truth, Beauty and Goodness eternal - the bountiful fullness of creation and existence, her still continuing struggle against him being only a small part of this.

A simple victory in a battle of ships means little in comparison and this is truely not what this struggle is about: It's an example of standing up for what is good and right, to serve faithfully. That's not to say we all should vow the same: Rather we should all find inspiration in this example to confront the darkness - within or without ourselves - that we can make a stand against: To burn and live, to fear not, to be light. To spread the light throughout creation.


Aria Jenneth wrote:
Respectfully, while, as a matter of principle, I don't duel, I don't think it's always an empty gesture.

The point here isn't to kill Nauplius. Killing him temporarily barely inconveniences him; killing him permanently is not an achievable goal for any of us. However, there may be victories to be won outside of pure economic damage.

Approaching an honor duel honorably is not about anything ephemeral; it's about making the victory count. The challenger here is a relative unknown, and lacks Nauplius' experience. Considering their relative strength, she doesn't lose much for a loss relative to what he stands to lose if he fails. It's about the only sort of victory that might even get Nauplius to reexamine his beliefs, especially if she ever starts beating him consistently. Really, she gains a little credit even if she never wins for just being tenacious, so long as she keeps it up. But it has to be clean, or the whole point of the thing is lost.

For my own part, I'll never duel him. I don't have anything to prove in such a way. Tamiroth does, though, and multiple ways to prove it.

Being careful about how crew are selected might be wise, though. Neither pilot's life is at stake, but other people's are.


Directrix Emerita Mithra, ms. Jenneth, thank you for the words of encouragement and support.

Of course, a duel where one of the opponents resorts to any unfair means he can use to get advantage and, ultimately, a hollow "victory", would only serve to his shame. The true victor of this battle would be the one who fell, not the one who won through off-grid links, neutral logistics or "unexpected reinforcements". That's why I had to turn down some offers of assistance that were made to me yesterday.

No, I will not dishonor the conditions of a pre-arranged duel with the enemy. If he is cheating, it only means that he lost.

But I also will not allow myself to be subtly painted into a corner of a binary choice where it shouldn't be.

A duel is indeed the easiest way to get an engagement with the heretic; he is eager to participate, because he is sure that he will win. But it is not the only way, and, outside of those honorable jousts, Nauplius and all his accomplices are still entirely valid targets. I leave to myself full freedom to use any means available to track, intercept and destroy those targets in low security areas when possible, and that's where all usual stratagems of capsuleer combat may apply.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#160 - 2015-12-07 00:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Arrendis wrote:
You make it sound as though you actually believe Nauplius's sincerity. You shouldn't. Nothing we've seen indicates that he actually believes in anything more than his own sadistic fun.

Respectfully, Arrendis, Nauplius doesn't have enough fun with his cruelty for me to think he isn't in earnest. Blowing up a million people (to mark the one-year anniversary of the last time you blew up a million people) isn't actually very sadistic; it's just mass murder. There's not a lot of "fun" to be had.

Weird as it sounds, I don't know that Nauplius is a proper sadist. He seems less to me like someone disingenuous and more like someone at the end of a long and very ugly trail of confirmation bias-fueled "religious epiphanies" driving him farther and farther from his native faith. He's worked himself into this odd mental state where he's pretty much the only one who really understands God. ... and God is a sadistic jerk.

At that point, all it really takes is not wanting to be one of "God's" victims. (Edit: Well-- and the hubris to assume you've done all your figuring right.)

I'd feel sorry for him, only he keeps making me want to do bad and creative things to him. I won't elaborate on those, though; he does tend to steal ideas.