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Question about Dreadnoughts...

Author
Xerophthalmia
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-01-06 08:40:32 UTC
I've been thinking about training for one and was playing around in EFT with the Revelation and the Phoenix (these are the easiest to train for my character). When I read different threads about them it seems as if the Rev is one of the best dreads out there both before and after the winter expansion. One of the advantages are no ammo of course.
The thing is, it seems as if the Phoenix has signifintly more dps and better active tanking abilities when comparing in EFT, both of them T2 fitted. So my question is, do people prefer the Revelation because og the flexibility of range and falloff or are there other reasons? The launchers only reach to about 60 km tops...
Aestivalis Saidrian
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#2 - 2012-01-06 08:43:07 UTC
Revelation doesn't have to reload, so I imagine its used more often in structure bashing. Phoenix is probably better in fleet fights when you need Damage Now, rather then wearing a target down.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Guldan Age Stories
Federation Front Line
#3 - 2012-01-06 08:49:51 UTC
From what I understand it's the other way around, torps doing insane damage to structures, and the lazors keeping the DPS consistently hi with ammo changes. Well from the research I've started to do in the last month any way.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Xerophthalmia
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-01-06 09:11:21 UTC
Aestivalis Saidrian wrote:
Revelation doesn't have to reload, so I imagine its used more often in structure bashing. Phoenix is probably better in fleet fights when you need Damage Now, rather then wearing a target down.

It is of course better if you don't have to reload, but isn't that mostly for the convenience of it when shooting POS. Isn't higher damage more important?

Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
From what I understand it's the other way around, torps doing insane damage to structures, and the lazors keeping the DPS consistently hi with ammo changes. Well from the research I've started to do in the last month any way.

I would think that too since the explosion radius is so big and explosion velocity so slow. This doesn't matter in POS shooting. In fleet fights the laser turrets, while slow, should do better at sniping when the enemies angular velocity is slow. Or am I wrong?
Aestivalis Saidrian
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#5 - 2012-01-06 09:32:10 UTC
While it is true that Citadel Torps/Cruise Missiles have absolutely failtacular sig-radius and explosion velocity, a properly painted target WILL have 1500m sig radius. Add in webs and you can deliver a 134k Alpha Strike, albeit kinetic damage. Oh, and the ability to tank 16k DPS as long as your cap holds out. So, the Phoenix, with proper EWar support will obliterate a lot of standard battleships today, and god help you if you have a MWD and those missiles land.

The Revelation, on the other hand, while it has 3k DPS on the Phoenix, has a third of the raw alpha strike that Phoenix can bring to the table, plus twin tracking computers without siege mode and you still track like a drunken sailor at a urinal. You'll shoot everything AROUND who you want. If the target is in a straight line when they attempt to burn away, you might get a teeny bit of the LAZORS on target.

So, right tool, right job and that all that.

Now, if you want a Dreadnaught to murder Small Things, send in a Moros with Tracking Comps and Webs. It's a messy, sordid and sad affair.

Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#6 - 2012-01-06 13:31:45 UTC
Pheonix, why, same reason the Naglfar.

Pheonix and Rev will be down to 50 or less cap percent after one cycle of Siege assuming they dont need to run there reps. A Nag or Pheonix do not have that issue, they simply Siege in, murder then have all the Cap in the world to Jump out again if they need or can immediately Siege back in, Moroses and Revs both generally need to stop at some point to cap up, and cant jump out straight after siege.

But the Naglfar is the best Dread because;

V
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Death Toll007
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-01-06 14:11:57 UTC
OP: Phoenix for structures, NAG for flexibility, Rev/Moros for Fleet fights.

Phoenix can be brought into fleet fight with support as mentioned previously with TP for sig radius bloom.

Ultimately the question is... Can you afford to lose 1.6-2bil isk worth of ship at this time? Because the moment you play this game with the attitude that you will fly something you do not feel comfortable losing, you will get hot dropped, and be force to lose it.

Accept everything you fly is already destroyed and the game is more fun.

-DT
firewalker220
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-01-06 18:13:06 UTC
Or move to WH space and play with dreads there. No more hot drops :) Also Moros dread best dread... I live in a c6 magnetar and my moros gets 30+k dps.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#9 - 2012-01-06 20:17:42 UTC
The revelation has its advantages in that it will keep shooting without having to reload and the tech 1 ammo is infinite and lasts forever.

This is great for long sieges or WH's where logistics can be a problem.

It is also much cheaper and cost effective when you factor in ammo costs.

Even using faction crystals is much cheaper than using T1 ammo on the rest of the dreads. Using Faction ammo becomes several times more expensive for the Naglfar, Moros, and Phoenix.

Using Jita prices

Antimatter XL: 2300 isk per shot

EMP XL: 2100 isk per shot

Rift Citadel Torpedo: 2500 isk per shot

Rajas Citadel Cruise: 2700 isk per shot

Sansha Multifrequency XL: 3,500,000 isk for 4000 shots = only 875 isk per shot

It costs about 3 times less for a Rev to use faction crystals than for the other dreads to use regular t1 ammo.

When you're shooting at something for a long time, the costs really pile up.

Now when you're using regular T1 crystals these will last forever, faction crystals last a long time.

Last but not least Crystals take only 1 m3 of cargo per crystal, leaving you with plenty of space you put extra mods, fuel, strontium, etc.
Aamrr
#10 - 2012-01-07 02:15:15 UTC
On the other hand, the Revelation wastes one of its bonuses on capacitor savings -- something I can mimic with two rigs slots.

Try getting a 25% non-stacking-penalized RoF bonus in your rigs. Good luck with that...
Mona X
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-01-07 05:31:26 UTC
On the other hanf, revelation don't have to hug POS, to hit it with full force.

I need new signature.

Xerophthalmia
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-01-07 21:39:35 UTC
Thanks for the replies! I'm set on the Revelation :-)
Xerophthalmia
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-01-08 01:31:33 UTC
Still I'm wondering. Doesn't the 13,5 K dps of a T2-fitted Moros outweigh the benefit of no-ammo on a Revelation when it can only muster 6 K dps?
limpy bint
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-01-08 07:49:27 UTC
Xerophthalmia wrote:
Still I'm wondering. Doesn't the 13,5 K dps of a T2-fitted Moros outweigh the benefit of no-ammo on a Revelation when it can only muster 6 K dps?


Are you comparing t2 fitted Moros with named guns and faction ammo to a **** fitted Rev? Because a similarly fitted Rev can do 9.7k dps.
Aamrr
#15 - 2012-01-08 07:56:14 UTC
I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was thinking of a beam fit -- still apples to oranges, just not completely crazy.
Xerophthalmia
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-01-08 11:45:27 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was thinking of a beam fit -- still apples to oranges, just not completely crazy.

For some unknown reason there wasn't an "Extra Large" section for pulse in my EFT (crusible), so I assumed that you only could use beams for the rev. I've downloaded EFT again and now it's there. Stupid really :-)
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-01-09 11:38:46 UTC
Aestivalis Saidrian wrote:
Phoenix is probably better in fleet fights when you need Damage Now


Dont you ever use that argument for a missile based ship ever again

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#18 - 2012-01-09 13:36:21 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
On the other hand, the Revelation wastes one of its bonuses on capacitor savings -- something I can mimic with two rigs slots.

Try getting a 25% non-stacking-penalized RoF bonus in your rigs. Good luck with that...


Let me get this straight - having more cap in a ship that must active tank is NOT a useful bonus?
Aamrr
#19 - 2012-01-09 13:45:29 UTC
Depends upon what I'm trading for that capacitor. If it's a 25% RoF bonus? Yes, absolutely. The Moros can drop magstabs to add more capacitor if necessary (and it will still do more DPS when it does so). The Revelation cannot exchange its cap savings bonus for extra damage, and stacking penalties prevent you from making up the difference with more heat sinks.

It's useful, certainly -- but you have to weigh it against what you're losing. And when you're comparing it to the Moros, you're losing something you absolutely cannot get back.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-01-09 13:52:21 UTC
It's only more cap if you're not shooting. The cap use bonus allows a Rev to be stable above jump cap though.
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