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The end of grid manipulation
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-12-04 23:38:00 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:

This combined w the new command destroyers ability to use links (small gang link option anyone?)
The implementation of brain in a box, the changes to capitals regarding their purpose as fleet boosters,
And the fact that Ccp have stated clearly in the past that they want to get rid of off grid links but it was contingent on the implementation of previously mentioned brain in a box... I'd say its pretty likely AND welcome. I certainly look forward to it.


The off grid removal is in the works and was stated by ccp last week in their honorable duels stream. Current direction is said to be AoE and easier to replace lost boosters. Planning buff and debuff links. Some fleet, some for all hit. That is what was said by CCP. Nothing more.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#22 - 2015-12-04 23:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Markus Reese wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:

This combined w the new command destroyers ability to use links (small gang link option anyone?)
The implementation of brain in a box, the changes to capitals regarding their purpose as fleet boosters,
And the fact that Ccp have stated clearly in the past that they want to get rid of off grid links but it was contingent on the implementation of previously mentioned brain in a box... I'd say its pretty likely AND welcome. I certainly look forward to it.


The off grid removal is in the works and was stated by ccp last week in their honorable duels stream. Current direction is said to be AoE and easier to replace lost boosters. Planning buff and debuff links. Some fleet, some for all hit. That is what was said by CCP. Nothing more.


Not sure what your point is unless you are just also confirming that removal of offgrid is coming. All of these changes obviously have an effect on the use of links on grid whether thats their sole purpose or not isnt relevant. Getting rid of of grid links was mentioned long before last week and brain in the box was indeed part of the limitation in doing so as very specifically stated by ccp. Your comment of "nothing more" is slightly confusing so I assume you are implying these things aren't true.

Daemun of Khanid
Top Guac
Doomheim
#23 - 2015-12-05 00:02:48 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
... get rid of off grid links ... its pretty likely AND welcome. I certainly look forward to it.

Just means the same people that ***** and moan about links now, will find another excuse for why they suck at pvp.

Something else will replace links as the next big barrier to solo pvp. My bet is on ECM.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#24 - 2015-12-05 00:05:06 UTC
Top Guac wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
... get rid of off grid links ... its pretty likely AND welcome. I certainly look forward to it.

Just means the same people that ***** and moan about links now, will find another excuse for why they suck at pvp.

Something else will replace links as the next big barrier to solo pvp. My bet is on ECM.



whaaa its now all 2 on 1 cause the link i son grid and i cna;t shoot him.. whaaa

or some bs

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#25 - 2015-12-05 00:10:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
I can see where that might be the case in some places where links can warp into the grid at really long ranges. In most lowsec/fw pvp though they'll still have to enter plexes at close range leaving them vulnerable to attack. So +1 from me for faction warfare pvp link usage.

As for ecm its been a pain every since it was introduced so no change there. That said I've yet to see a really good suggestion for how to make it better so it will continue to do what its always done, discourage engagments with any known ecm platform. Personally I don't have a major beef with it anymore. If enemy brings ecm I bring my own.

Daemun of Khanid
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#26 - 2015-12-05 00:16:48 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Top Guac wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
... get rid of off grid links ... its pretty likely AND welcome. I certainly look forward to it.

Just means the same people that ***** and moan about links now, will find another excuse for why they suck at pvp.

Something else will replace links as the next big barrier to solo pvp. My bet is on ECM.



whaaa its now all 2 on 1 cause the link i son grid and i cna;t shoot him.. whaaa

or some bs

Oh just wait
"You mean I've to fly all the way out there to get them...
seeeseeeepeeeeeeeeeeee the grids are too big,
and and and *sniff* recon ships are op and and and he kicked me!"

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-12-05 00:21:50 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Prt Scr wrote:
I had a sudden eureka moment (and I was in the bath), is this the first step towards the often discussed changes to use of command links?....make the command ship leave the POS and be on grid to give bonuses is often a subject of debate...now with a massive grid I feel that it is an incoming (and welcome to me) change.


Given that what they've said of the OGB nerf is that they're aiming for AOE buffs, no, this probably isn't so boosters can just sit really far away while still technically being "on grid".

Certainly has some applications with respect to the capital ship changes, though.

It's REALLY unlikely they're just going to bring links "on grid". Dollars to doughnuts it's a fairly massive rework of the entire concept of fleet boosting.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#28 - 2015-12-05 00:23:31 UTC
I'll be happy to see links for frigs sliding plex gates with their fleets instead of being flown by neutral alts sitting under the protection of gate/station guns at zero risk.

Daemun of Khanid
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#29 - 2015-12-05 00:26:05 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Prt Scr wrote:
I had a sudden eureka moment (and I was in the bath), is this the first step towards the often discussed changes to use of command links?....make the command ship leave the POS and be on grid to give bonuses is often a subject of debate...now with a massive grid I feel that it is an incoming (and welcome to me) change.


Given that what they've said of the OGB nerf is that they're aiming for AOE buffs, no, this probably isn't so boosters can just sit really far away while still technically being "on grid".

Certainly has some applications with respect to the capital ship changes, though.

It's REALLY unlikely they're just going to bring links "on grid". Dollars to doughnuts it's a fairly massive rework of the entire concept of fleet boosting.


I was under the impression that the AOE buffs were in relation to citadel and capital ship buffs, not standard links. I could be mistaken though if someone could factually confirm.

Daemun of Khanid
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#30 - 2015-12-05 00:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Daemun Khanid wrote:
I can see where that might be the case in some places where links can warp into the grid at really long ranges. In most lowsec/fw pvp though they'll still have to enter plexes at close range leaving them vulnerable to attack. So +1 from me for faction warfare pvp.

It will be interesting to see if the deadspace in a PLEX is also 7800 m. I'm not sure if the deadspace by default is the grid size, or is a separate fixed distance from the beacon.

If not, it might be possible with some preparation to warp on grid to the PLEX, but at long range and near impossible to target in a fight. Cloak up until a fight. Decloak, activate links and AFK like now.

So it will be interesting to see if CCP has changed deadspace sizes also.

That may be where AOE for links will be important too and not just on-grid.

It will certainly be fun for a while figuring out how to best use the new grid sizes.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#31 - 2015-12-05 00:32:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
I can see where that might be the case in some places where links can warp into the grid at really long ranges. In most lowsec/fw pvp though they'll still have to enter plexes at close range leaving them vulnerable to attack. So +1 from me for faction warfare pvp.

It will be interesting to see if the deadspace in a PLEX is also 7800 m.

If not, it might be possible with some preparation to warp on grid to the PLEX, but at long range and near impossible to target in a fight. Cloak up until a fight. Decloak, activate links and AFK like now.

So it will be interesting to see if CCP has changed deadspace sizes also.


I believe that based on current mechanics you can warp in at extreme long rang in order to get ships in without sliding but a. Thats still much farther away (not really sure about that as I've never taken the time or been bored enough to see just how far it is) than the new grid increase and b. Given the time it takes to setup bms and do the gridfu necessary to make it work coupled with the time that a plex actually stays open, that it just isn't practical enough to be useful. You're better off just tanking the crap out of your link ship and sliding in.

Daemun of Khanid
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-12-05 00:34:25 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Prt Scr wrote:
I had a sudden eureka moment (and I was in the bath), is this the first step towards the often discussed changes to use of command links?....make the command ship leave the POS and be on grid to give bonuses is often a subject of debate...now with a massive grid I feel that it is an incoming (and welcome to me) change.


Given that what they've said of the OGB nerf is that they're aiming for AOE buffs, no, this probably isn't so boosters can just sit really far away while still technically being "on grid".

Certainly has some applications with respect to the capital ship changes, though.

It's REALLY unlikely they're just going to bring links "on grid". Dollars to doughnuts it's a fairly massive rework of the entire concept of fleet boosting.


I was under the impression that the AOE buffs were in relation to citadel and capital ship buffs, not standard links. I could be mistaken though if someone could factually confirm.



A: http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/v/27816547 Start at about an hour and 7 minutes.

B: Command destroyer F&I thread, where they specifically mention that they will "slot in perfectly" with the link rework. Given their other special ability (MJD bubble), they're obviously not meant to be another sit-AFK-no-where-near-the-actual-fight ship.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2015-12-05 00:44:20 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:

Not sure what your point is unless you are just also confirming that removal of offgrid is coming. All of these changes obviously have an effect on the use of links on grid whether thats their sole purpose or not isnt relevant. Getting rid of of grid links was mentioned long before last week and brain in the box was indeed part of the limitation in doing so as very specifically stated by ccp. Your comment of "nothing more" is slightly confusing so I assume you are implying these things aren't true.


Just confirmation of what they said. The nothing more was no more details in what they were doing. Changes are being worked on and that was the direction they were going. No other point to it than we need to be careful of assuming how it will play since ccp essentially said it is all different.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#34 - 2015-12-05 00:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Prt Scr wrote:
I had a sudden eureka moment (and I was in the bath), is this the first step towards the often discussed changes to use of command links?....make the command ship leave the POS and be on grid to give bonuses is often a subject of debate...now with a massive grid I feel that it is an incoming (and welcome to me) change.


Given that what they've said of the OGB nerf is that they're aiming for AOE buffs, no, this probably isn't so boosters can just sit really far away while still technically being "on grid".

Certainly has some applications with respect to the capital ship changes, though.

It's REALLY unlikely they're just going to bring links "on grid". Dollars to doughnuts it's a fairly massive rework of the entire concept of fleet boosting.


I was under the impression that the AOE buffs were in relation to citadel and capital ship buffs, not standard links. I could be mistaken though if someone could factually confirm.



A: http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/v/27816547 Start at about an hour and 7 minutes.

B: Command destroyer F&I thread, where they specifically mention that they will "slot in perfectly" with the link rework. Given their other special ability (MJD bubble), they're obviously not meant to be another sit-AFK-no-where-near-the-actual-fight ship.



Awesome, thanks for that Monkey, think that pretty much rules out the fears of links sitting at extreme long ranges on the new grids causing further link fear tears. Ofc the going pattern of changes seems to be that part of the change is released in advance of its sister changes. See missile comps and disruptors, so I wouldn't be suprised to see links first get restricted to grid and then later get transformed into AOE. That ofc course depends on how much work has to go into making them on grid as to whether or not its something thats released in increments as opposed to a complete package.

Daemun of Khanid
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#35 - 2015-12-05 00:48:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Given the time it takes to setup bms and do the gridfu necessary to make it work coupled with the time that a plex actually stays open...

I'm not in FW. I'm an honorabru neutral. Plexes stay open for me forever.

Gridfu won't be necessary and multiple midwarp BMs are easy to setup in seconds.

Never under estimate the lengths people will go to if it will extract tears from others.

Quote:
I believe that based on current mechanics you can warp in at extreme long rang in order to get ships in without sliding but

It's currently an exploit to bypass gates to enter FW plexes in ships normally restricted based on size.

That probably takes care of the issue in any case.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#36 - 2015-12-05 00:50:12 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Given the time it takes to setup bms and do the gridfu necessary to make it work coupled with the time that a plex actually stays open...

I'm not in FW. I'm an honorabru neutral. Plexes stay open for me forever.

Gridfu won't be necessary and multiple midwarp BMs are easy to setup in seconds.

Never under estimate the lengths people will go to if it will extract tears from others.

Quote:
I believe that based on current mechanics you can warp in at extreme long rang in order to get ships in without sliding but

It's currently an exploit to bypass gates to enter FW plexes in ships normally restricted based on size.

That probably takes care of the issue in any case.


Good points and good to know.

Daemun of Khanid
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#37 - 2015-12-05 00:55:50 UTC
Sol! Welcome back!

Add me so I can mail you! ^^

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Solecist Project
#38 - 2015-12-05 01:10:16 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
Sol! Welcome back!

Add me so I can mail you! ^^

Done! ^_^

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Gliese Casserres
Confused Bunnies Inc
#39 - 2015-12-05 09:02:15 UTC
More like end of the annoyance of broken 100 km grids, which is good. The amount of bookmarks that have to be redone, however, is not.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#40 - 2015-12-06 00:18:33 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Prt Scr wrote:
Just reading through the next patch notes and noticed this;

Grid boxes have been increased in size from 250km to 7800km.

And so ends the occasionally used exploit of altering the grid at gates so bombing runs while remaining unseen decloaked is no longer an option.


Exploit.

Inigo Montoya wrote:
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.



Would abuse work then?

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
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