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Lv4s 100-150mil/h+: Breakdown

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#401 - 2015-12-04 12:05:17 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:


You don't need to use tools. I have station trading alts in Amarr, Dodixie, Ren and Jita and I can tell you that his numbers aren't that far off.


He is 110,000 isk per unit off.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#402 - 2015-12-04 15:08:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:


You don't need to use tools. I have station trading alts in Amarr, Dodixie, Ren and Jita and I can tell you that his numbers aren't that far off.


He is 110,000 isk per unit off.


No you can't go by what they are selling because it can take you days to sell them with competing tediously with the other sellers. The buy order is what you go by for instant LP to isk conversion. And that is 480k isk per probe atm.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#403 - 2015-12-04 15:22:50 UTC
LP rates change based on player demand. Market economy and all that. What might be high one week, can be low the next. For all we know someone could have been saving up for months to buy up all the probes and launchers, and the resell them at a higher price. So stop niggling on a wildcard in the equation.

The only thing in PVE that stays constant is the bounty.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#404 - 2015-12-04 16:53:38 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:


No you can't go by what they are selling for because it shows I am wrong in a way I cannot argue against.


Fixed that for you.

Now that we have shown you the facts we can move this topic back to the pressing need of reform of this game imbalance.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#405 - 2015-12-04 16:54:48 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
LP rates change based on player demand. Market economy and all that. What might be high one week, can be low the next. For all we know someone could have been saving up for months to buy up all the probes and launchers, and the resell them at a higher price. So stop niggling on a wildcard in the equation.

The only thing in PVE that stays constant is the bounty.


SOE prices have been steady for years.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#406 - 2015-12-04 17:41:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
LP rates change based on player demand. Market economy and all that. What might be high one week, can be low the next. For all we know someone could have been saving up for months to buy up all the probes and launchers, and the resell them at a higher price. So stop niggling on a wildcard in the equation.

The only thing in PVE that stays constant is the bounty.


SOE prices have been steady for years.


Oh? Show proof.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#407 - 2015-12-04 17:52:05 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
LP rates change based on player demand. Market economy and all that. What might be high one week, can be low the next. For all we know someone could have been saving up for months to buy up all the probes and launchers, and the resell them at a higher price. So stop niggling on a wildcard in the equation.

The only thing in PVE that stays constant is the bounty.


SOE prices have been steady for years.


Oh? Show proof.


I think it is about time for you so show some proof. I have posted guides, fits, graphs and endless statistics, now its your turn.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#408 - 2015-12-04 21:20:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
One thing I hadn't considered is that if you manufacture your own probes you can bring the cost down substantially - especially if you mine your own minerals or have access to a cheap source. There's the cost of acquiring and researching a set of original blueprints, but that's really only a one-time hit unless you switch items.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#409 - 2015-12-04 22:51:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
LP rates change based on player demand. Market economy and all that. What might be high one week, can be low the next. For all we know someone could have been saving up for months to buy up all the probes and launchers, and the resell them at a higher price. So stop niggling on a wildcard in the equation.

The only thing in PVE that stays constant is the bounty.


SOE prices have been steady for years.


Oh? Show proof.


I think it is about time for you so show some proof. I have posted guides, fits, graphs and endless statistics, now its your turn.


I don't have to. Everyone knows prices fluctuate in a market economy. EVE is no different. You stated that the price has been steady for years. You are the one stating something as fact. Not I. Burden of proof is on you.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#410 - 2015-12-04 23:17:41 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:


I don't have to. Everyone knows prices fluctuate in a market economy. EVE is no different. You stated that the price has been steady for years. You are the one stating something as fact. Not I. Burden of proof is on you.


No dice, prove what you are saying for once.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#411 - 2015-12-05 03:14:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:


I don't have to. Everyone knows prices fluctuate in a market economy. EVE is no different. You stated that the price has been steady for years. You are the one stating something as fact. Not I. Burden of proof is on you.


No dice, prove what you are saying for once.



You are the dishonest one here claiming things that are easily verified as false.

Markets move up and down and the numbers you claim are so far off base we can safely discard them.

In before Jenn appears to your aid with a: "This is your made up pretend amateur psychoanalysis condition showing" post.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#412 - 2015-12-05 04:53:23 UTC
yes of course prices change, but y'all know SoE stuff has been pretty damn constant.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#413 - 2015-12-05 05:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
So as with L4 mission blitzing/Burners, to approach these numbers for blitzing L3s you need:
• SoE agents in Lanngisi (the closest SoE hub is only 0.7, and Lanngisi is preferable over Apanake; minimal jumps and distances)
• Both Security V and Negotiation V (at least Security V, as LP return is key)
• Researched BPCs, skills and minerals to manufacture any items required in LP redemption
• Timing sell orders with peak market demand to ensure the highest rate of return (requires market monitoring)

I don't think you necessarily need a Machariel, though. A HML Tengu with FoF missiles would probably suffice (warp speed with a Gravitational Capacitor will be comparable), and you can run a passive fit for the most part. 600 applied DPS with implants, no micromanagement and a fast align time would seem to meet the requirements (you're not going to be getting 1000+ DPS with a Machariel at maximum range anyway).

Personally, I wouldn't rank blitzing L3 SoE missions as a high-point in my PvE activities. I much prefer shooting (and occasionally looting) L4s with 3 characters. It's quite easy to sustain 125-150m+ ISK/hour (and occasionally break 200m+ ISK/hour) which is double what you can get blitzing SoE L3s and almost on par with blitzing SoE L4s/Burners. And my numbers are typically at Security/Negotiation IV in standard 0.6 Faction systems, and the majority of the ISK comes from bounties, mission rewards and occasional salvage (if I get more than 1000 ISK/LP I'm ecstatic). You don't need a 5-billion ISK investment (you can ramp-up with additional characters), perfect skills and you can opt for a system closer to your favorite market hub.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#414 - 2015-12-05 09:10:15 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:


I don't think you necessarily need a Machariel, though. A HML Tengu with FoF missiles would probably suffice (warp speed with a Gravitational Capacitor will be comparable), and you can run a passive fit for the most part. 600 applied DPS with implants, no micromanagement and a fast align time would seem to meet the requirements (you're not going to be getting 1000+ DPS with a Machariel at maximum range anyway).

.


FoF tengu wont get close to a mach.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#415 - 2015-12-05 09:15:35 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



You are the dishonest one here claiming things that are easily verified as false.


I'm the only one here who has back up what they have said with spreadsheets, data, fits and guides. Your side so far has absolutely nothing to back up what you say. As usual.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Markets move up and down and the numbers you claim are so far off base we can safely discard them.


Prove what you are saying.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#416 - 2015-12-05 09:55:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
baltec1 wrote:
FoF tengu wont get close to a mach.

I think you underestimate, but I'll run a few L3s and report the completion time for comparison. With respect to "sides", I've tried to relay my own observations in an unbiased manner (granted, it's not as technical or comprehensive as the spreadsheet you've linked).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
The Bigpuns
United Standings Improvement Agency
#417 - 2015-12-05 09:57:43 UTC
Ok, this is getting out of hand.

Hopefully we can agree that a massive rebalance of hisec pve would take an awful lot of balancing and is not likely to happen anytime soon.

I do agree that some aspects of it could easily and desirably be toned down. Such as:

1. Reduce max lp return on burners
2. Link the lp return of a mission to level of completion (ie you blitz it only killing a quarter of the baddies, you only get a quarter of the lp's, maybe add a bit if you killed a boss rat)
3. Incursion and fw could do with some sort of work. Maybe not reducing max rewards, but make the rewards require more effort to cash in?

Hope we can get to a civilised discussion again, even if there is no hope of these changes actually happening!
Yadaryon Vondawn
Vicanthya
#418 - 2015-12-05 11:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Yadaryon Vondawn
I think that regardless of the precise numbers blitzing can be very profitable. I also think however that there are less than 50 ~ players in the entirety of New Eden that run these extreme numbers. For all this stuff to work (talking about L4 blitzing now, 200M+~) you need be running for SoE in a 0.5 system and being on the ball continously. The average mission runner does not do this, can not do this and probably never will. I think this is a case of a few people who have dedicated themselves (commendable!) to optimize this. That should not warrant a nerf but a nod of appreciation in my opinion. Having scrolled through the blitz guides I have adapted some strategies if I am mission running myself but even tho I know going full blitz is more profitable, I most likely never will do it that way.

It seems to me a bit the same like those high end wormhole folks that clear sites in seconds by bombrunning or smartbombing groups of sleepers. Yes is it insanely profitable but hard to setup and not that many people do it.

My point being:
A very small portion of the mission running folks have optimized their strategum, good for them and nice of them to share these methods. This should however not mean that just because <1% run high ISK/hour the entirety should be nerfed. In fact CCP has already announced that they will implement the tribute system which will give additional rewards.

@The Bigpuns
1: Tho I agree that the LP turnout on burners is substantial higher (50%~ of a Blockade say) the dangers involved are equally higher. Running the Blockade takes no effort whatsoever while running burners is a much more dangerous venture involving semi-costly ships (depends on the player ofc), more skill intensive characters and overloading. I think CCP is fairly happy by the ratio risk/LP turnout on this one and so am I personally.

2: I can very much see why you make this point. I also know very few mission runner folks in my social circle that do not (partially) blitz missions. Lowering the income on blitzers would (I think) have a negative impact on mission runner participation in general.

3: Incursions are a funny thing for highsec PVE. Despite people claiming that the cost of entry is high, in practice that is not so much the case. Any group I ever ran incursions with accepted T2 fit BS/Logi. Also the ISK turnover of the average incursion group is a bit lower than normally is advertised I think. When people say that they make 140M~/hour with incursions they are (in my experience) running with a solid, knowledgable group with very optimized fits and strong control. Most groups I ran with averaged at 60-70M~/hour normally. Again I think CCP is quite happy with the fleet learning incursions provide. Missions > Incursions > PVP is somewhat common. Making entry harder for newbros might not be something they want to do.



Just my two cents.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#419 - 2015-12-05 13:06:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
The Bigpuns wrote:
Ok, this is getting out of hand.

Hopefully we can agree that a massive rebalance of hisec pve would take an awful lot of balancing and is not likely to happen anytime soon.

I do agree that some aspects of it could easily and desirably be toned down. Such as:

1. Reduce max lp return on burners
2. Link the lp return of a mission to level of completion (ie you blitz it only killing a quarter of the baddies, you only get a quarter of the lp's, maybe add a bit if you killed a boss rat)
3. Incursion and fw could do with some sort of work. Maybe not reducing max rewards, but make the rewards require more effort to cash in?

Hope we can get to a civilised discussion again, even if there is no hope of these changes actually happening!


Good because I'm content with the way things are now. There have already been tons of PVE content that has gotten nerfed or axed before I've had a chance to cash in. Baltec and that Jenn have already cashed in their cows and now want to eliminate any opportunity for anyone else to do the same.

And no to your #1 because if you lower the LP on burners then they'll no longer be worth running.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#420 - 2015-12-05 13:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
I think that regardless of the precise numbers blitzing can be very profitable. I also think however that there are less than 50 ~ players in the entirety of New Eden that run these extreme numbers. For all this stuff to work (talking about L4 blitzing now, 200M+~) you need be running for SoE in a 0.5 system and being on the ball continously. The average mission runner does not do this, can not do this and probably never will. I think this is a case of a few people who have dedicated themselves (commendable!) to optimize this. That should not warrant a nerf but a nod of appreciation in my opinion. Having scrolled through the blitz guides I have adapted some strategies if I am mission running myself but even tho I know going full blitz is more profitable, I most likely never will do it that way.

It seems to me a bit the same like those high end wormhole folks that clear sites in seconds by bombrunning or smartbombing groups of sleepers. Yes is it insanely profitable but hard to setup and not that many people do it.

My point being:
A very small portion of the mission running folks have optimized their strategum, good for them and nice of them to share these methods. This should however not mean that just because <1% run high ISK/hour the entirety should be nerfed. In fact CCP has already announced that they will implement the tribute system which will give additional rewards.

@The Bigpuns
1: Tho I agree that the LP turnout on burners is substantial higher (50%~ of a Blockade say) the dangers involved are equally higher. Running the Blockade takes no effort whatsoever while running burners is a much more dangerous venture involving semi-costly ships (depends on the player ofc), more skill intensive characters and overloading. I think CCP is fairly happy by the ratio risk/LP turnout on this one and so am I personally.

2: I can very much see why you make this point. I also know very few mission runner folks in my social circle that do not (partially) blitz missions. Lowering the income on blitzers would (I think) have a negative impact on mission runner participation in general.

3: Incursions are a funny thing for highsec PVE. Despite people claiming that the cost of entry is high, in practice that is not so much the case. Any group I ever ran incursions with accepted T2 fit BS/Logi. Also the ISK turnover of the average incursion group is a bit lower than normally is advertised I think. When people say that they make 140M~/hour with incursions they are (in my experience) running with a solid, knowledgable group with very optimized fits and strong control. Most groups I ran with averaged at 60-70M~/hour normally. Again I think CCP is quite happy with the fleet learning incursions provide. Missions > Incursions > PVP is somewhat common. Making entry harder for newbros might not be something they want to do.



Just my two cents.


The word newbro is completely lost on people like baltec. People like him thinks everyone who plays Eve is a 5-10 year bittervet like him and knows how to exploit every slightly unbalanced mechanic in the game to the max.