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Lv4s 100-150mil/h+: Breakdown

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#381 - 2015-12-03 18:26:22 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Can we revisit this 90m ISK/hour estimate blitzing L3s? I seriously doubt this is obtainable, and rather than quoting threads I'd like to see some of those championing L3 blitzing post their fits and actual numbers achieved. This includes a breakdown of mission rewards, NPC bounties, salvage where applicable and ISK/LP conversion - in addition to which Empire Faction and system type.

Otherwise we can add this claim to cold fusion and crop circles.


Looking back you were there at ground zero when this was discovered. But here we are anyway.

This was done With the following.

[Machariel, Level - 3]
Gyrostabilizer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Signal Amplifier II
Signal Amplifier II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
100MN Microwarpdrive II

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I

Warden II x4
Hobgoblin II x5

Implants:
5% dmg: ss-905
5% dmg: LP1005
10% warp speed: ws-610

Warp speed: 5.18 AU/s
Guns: 1005 DPS Range: 4.8km+69km

I would like to point out that improvements have been made on the above fit which has given it even faster warp speeds.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#382 - 2015-12-03 20:29:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Looking back you were there at ground zero when this was discovered.

Probably, but I've lost track of many of these threads. Thanks for posting the spreadsheet analysis. It looks like if we use an ISK/LP conversion ratio of 2000 (which seems a tad on the high side), 80m ISK/hour is achievable. On the low side, 55m ISK/hour. So a happy medium is probably somewhere in the middle around 67.5m ISK/hour.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#383 - 2015-12-03 21:08:24 UTC
Just to do a quick comparison, I ran Gone Beserk with a non-SoE 0.5 agent. The mission rewards were 143500 (12%) lower. It took me 00:05:48 start to finish, which was shooting everything. I had a faster mission warp speed but arguably my drone, gunnery and other applicable skills are not 100% (mostly IV with some V). I earned 1689 LP which is 143 (8%) less. I will be lucky to get a 1000 ISK/LP conversion with a non-SoE agent. I didn't blitz it - but this will yield higher bounties. No salvage.

Mission rewards: 1.08m ISK
LP rewards: 1.69m ISK (1000 ISK/LP)
Bounties: 1.68m ISK
Grand total: 4.45m ISK / 00:05:48, or 44.5m ISK/hour if I continue at this rate.

A few observations. First, unless you use a SoE agent in the perfect system, you're never going to break 50m ISK/hour blitzing or even just running L3s with the Machariel fit. Second, you cannot keep up a blitz pace indefinitely. At some point you're going to start burning out, making mistakes (or reading forums) which will impact your ISK/hour. There is a lot more micromanagement involved in blitzing or running missions as opposed to shooting battleship spawns in anomalies. Third, the ISK/LP conversion is the real wild card here. The 80m ISK/hour threshold should be considered an upper limit under ideal conditions with perfect skills and favorable mission conditions. You start with 80m ISK/hour potential and go down from there. How fast depends on you.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#384 - 2015-12-03 22:31:45 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Can we revisit this 90m ISK/hour estimate blitzing L3s? I seriously doubt this is obtainable, and rather than quoting threads I'd like to see some of those championing L3 blitzing post their fits and actual numbers achieved. This includes a breakdown of mission rewards, NPC bounties, salvage where applicable and ISK/LP conversion - in addition to which Empire Faction and system type.


Sure, go ahead.

But understand this, if it were 70 mil, it would still represent an unbalanced situation, because safety (in the form of responding npc police) has a value.

That's what gets lost in talking rewards with people (particularly those who don't recognize their high sec privilages). In the GD discussion about incursions someone mentioned that you can make more from null incursions. In all, a null incursion HQ site pays like 13.5 mil isk more than a high sec one.

Which is why High Sec incursions get farmed by professional communities that formed and null incursions go largely undone. It's why the 10% more LP you get from low sec missions means jack squat also. Because CCP doesn't really understand the value of safety, they don't knwo how to properly scale rewards to be meaningful.

70 mil an hour in high sec blitzing lvl 3s never losing a ship is preferable to 90 mil an hour in null dodging nullified interceptors and hot dropping stealth bombers in null (or 80 mil an hour doing C3s in a wormhole). But buffing null past that 90 mil per hour (in liquid isk) would also be a big mistake as would upping the amount of wealth you can wring from a wormyhole, so the obvious best balance approach is to look at the things that are actually problems (blitzing, high sec incursions, FW missions, the afk-ability of null anoms etc) and cutting some of that down.


An incursion fleet is basically a pvp fleet minus the tackle, which you really don't need because the rats will tackle people for you. Incursion systems have system-wide cyno jammer going so you don't have to worry about people hot-dropping you. Caps can't take the gates. Since an incursion fleet is already maxed for dps and remote reps, if someone were to come into your site in low or null, you will most likely be on equal footing or in an even better position than the attacker. Seriously, I don't understand why people are so scared of running incursions in low or null.

The hardest part is prolly getting people out there to run them.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#385 - 2015-12-03 23:20:20 UTC
I think the two main problems with null incursions are that they spawn randomly so it is hard to maintain interest in them. If you always know you are going to have one you can have a standing fleet for them, if you get one every other month how do you maintain interest? I think your points about combat make it pretty decent for the people running the incursions. however my second problem is that it is very easy to see someone running a null incursion on the map and it becomes easy for attackers to form up around that. Disruptions can be a big drain, although a fight on that scale seems like it would be worth it just for lulz. Although it looks like you can throw roughly 60 people into a null HQ before you lose rewards.

Every time I look at the incursion report the lowsec version seems to have some progress. I'm guessing that the increased rewards and chances for the reverent bpc or shadow bpcs are decent enough someone has started running them.

re lv3s I hit something like 50m/hour just accepting them all and relying on overwhelming dps to go fast. I Think AE was a significant drag, probably should have taken better notes. A few fit optimizations and better knowledge of the missions would have helped a bunch, and of course a larger sample size. I generally believe numbers between 50-80m or so.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Jerry T Pepridge
Meta Game Analysis and Investment INC.
#386 - 2015-12-03 23:34:17 UTC
Another day another page of PVE sperg

@JerryTPepridge
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#387 - 2015-12-04 00:02:24 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
I think the two main problems with null incursions are that they spawn randomly so it is hard to maintain interest in them.

I think it's hard to interest players in null-sec just to show up.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#388 - 2015-12-04 01:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Looking back you were there at ground zero when this was discovered.

Probably, but I've lost track of many of these threads. Thanks for posting the spreadsheet analysis. It looks like if we use an ISK/LP conversion ratio of 2000 (which seems a tad on the high side), 80m ISK/hour is achievable. On the low side, 55m ISK/hour. So a happy medium is probably somewhere in the middle around 67.5m ISK/hour.


80 mil/hr isn't too hard to get with the newer mach fits as they get 8 au warp speeds, longer falloff and faster locking times than the original. Your looking at 90 mil/hr maxed out and it's no harder than piloting a hyperion or vindi in anoms. SOE probes are also selling at very good rates at the moment.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#389 - 2015-12-04 01:26:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
SOE probes are also selling at very good rates at the moment.

2000 ISK/IP good?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#390 - 2015-12-04 01:37:09 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
SOE probes are also selling at very good rates at the moment.

2000 ISK/IP good?


2400 as of now. Even some of the faction ammo is knocking on for 2000 and good many in demand implants are well over 3000.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#391 - 2015-12-04 01:45:38 UTC
How exactly is ISK/LP being calculated here? I assume any Faction store ISK cost is deducted from the selling price before calculating ISK/LP?a

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#392 - 2015-12-04 01:46:11 UTC
combat probes were selling for over a million yesterday, although they look to be back at normal prices today :p

heck right now they are selling for 2443.3694444444 isk/lp according to fuzzworks

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#393 - 2015-12-04 04:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Just to do a quick comparison, I ran Gone Beserk with a non-SoE 0.5 agent. The mission rewards were 143500 (12%) lower. It took me 00:05:48 start to finish, which was shooting everything. I had a faster mission warp speed but arguably my drone, gunnery and other applicable skills are not 100% (mostly IV with some V). I earned 1689 LP which is 143 (8%) less. I will be lucky to get a 1000 ISK/LP conversion with a non-SoE agent. I didn't blitz it - but this will yield higher bounties. No salvage.

Mission rewards: 1.08m ISK
LP rewards: 1.69m ISK (1000 ISK/LP)
Bounties: 1.68m ISK
Grand total: 4.45m ISK / 00:05:48, or 44.5m ISK/hour if I continue at this rate.

A few observations. First, unless you use a SoE agent in the perfect system, you're never going to break 50m ISK/hour blitzing or even just running L3s with the Machariel fit. Second, you cannot keep up a blitz pace indefinitely. At some point you're going to start burning out, making mistakes (or reading forums) which will impact your ISK/hour. There is a lot more micromanagement involved in blitzing or running missions as opposed to shooting battleship spawns in anomalies. Third, the ISK/LP conversion is the real wild card here. The 80m ISK/hour threshold should be considered an upper limit under ideal conditions with perfect skills and favorable mission conditions. You start with 80m ISK/hour potential and go down from there. How fast depends on you.


Thanks Arthur for taking the time to gather REALISTIC isk per hour figures on mission blitzing. What the high inflated numbers don't explain is that those figures are only achievable under optimal conditions and with only running with SOE.

Also not mentioned is that mission blitzing is very tedious and hard work. Not everyone is gonna have the temperament to maintain a steady mistake free blitz run over a long indefinite period of time. I tried to blitz missions just to see the isk per hour comparison and was totally exhausted within 2-3 hours, it's just not as sustainable as regular mission running. So the high inflated isk per hour mission blitzing is mostly only achievable in bursts, not continuously non-stop all day long.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#394 - 2015-12-04 04:39:26 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Just to do a quick comparison, I ran Gone Beserk with a non-SoE 0.5 agent. The mission rewards were 143500 (12%) lower. It took me 00:05:48 start to finish, which was shooting everything. I had a faster mission warp speed but arguably my drone, gunnery and other applicable skills are not 100% (mostly IV with some V). I earned 1689 LP which is 143 (8%) less. I will be lucky to get a 1000 ISK/LP conversion with a non-SoE agent. I didn't blitz it - but this will yield higher bounties. No salvage.

Mission rewards: 1.08m ISK
LP rewards: 1.69m ISK (1000 ISK/LP)
Bounties: 1.68m ISK
Grand total: 4.45m ISK / 00:05:48, or 44.5m ISK/hour if I continue at this rate.

A few observations. First, unless you use a SoE agent in the perfect system, you're never going to break 50m ISK/hour blitzing or even just running L3s with the Machariel fit. Second, you cannot keep up a blitz pace indefinitely. At some point you're going to start burning out, making mistakes (or reading forums) which will impact your ISK/hour. There is a lot more micromanagement involved in blitzing or running missions as opposed to shooting battleship spawns in anomalies. Third, the ISK/LP conversion is the real wild card here. The 80m ISK/hour threshold should be considered an upper limit under ideal conditions with perfect skills and favorable mission conditions. You start with 80m ISK/hour potential and go down from there. How fast depends on you.


Thanks Arthur for taking the time to gather REALISTIC isk per hour figures on mission blitzing. What the high inflated numbers don't explain is that those figures are only achievable under optimal conditions and with only running with SOE.

Also not mentioned is that mission blitzing is very tedious and hard work. Not everyone is gonna have the temperament to maintain a steady mistake free blitz run over a long indefinite period of time. I tried to blitz missions just to see the isk per hour comparison and was totally exhausted within 2-3 hours, it's just not as sustainable as regular mission running. So the high inflated isk per hour mission blitzing is mostly only achievable in bursts, not continuously non-stop all day long.


I would have thought it was pretty obvious that high ISK blitz figures are only achieved running for high ISK/LP corps and are an active hands on activity that probably best suits players that are on for short periods and want to maximise their income for the limited time they are online.

Some one doing semi afk missioning all day long, day in day out, for a convenient corp in a safe higher security system whilst watching a movie in another screen or whatever is not going to increase income that much by suddenly starting blitzing.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#395 - 2015-12-04 06:06:43 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Daniela Doran wrote:


Thanks Arthur for taking the time to gather REALISTIC isk per hour figures on mission blitzing. What the high inflated numbers don't explain is that those figures are only achievable under optimal conditions and with only running with SOE.



Not only are they realistic but right now they are based upon 2000isk/lp, the current going price of combat probes is 2400 so you can be earning more that 90mil/hr doing level 3 missions. 2000 isk/lp can also be found in a surprisingly large number of factions too.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#396 - 2015-12-04 06:31:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:


Thanks Arthur for taking the time to gather REALISTIC isk per hour figures on mission blitzing. What the high inflated numbers don't explain is that those figures are only achievable under optimal conditions and with only running with SOE.



Not only are they realistic but right now they are based upon 2000isk/lp, the current going price of combat probes is 2400 so you can be earning more that 90mil/hr doing level 3 missions. 2000 isk/lp can also be found in a surprisingly large number of factions too.

1. for lv 3s the numbers are valid for corps other than SoE. many other corps have stores with similar or higher isk/lp rates. For burners I'm not sure you can match it. For conventional lv4s you can probably match or beat elsewhere, although there may be some limits there.

2. you will only get 2400 isk/lp out of combat probes if you are in jita updating the order frequently. Competition is pretty strong on those. And I doubt that rate will last more than a few days. Heck I'm surprised it has lasted as long as it has. half tempted to go throw a billion isk worth of probes at 1900 or so. heh now I'm tempted to go crash a specific market see what prices I can set.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
How exactly is ISK/LP being calculated here? I assume any Faction store ISK cost is deducted from the selling price before calculating ISK/LP?a

fuzzworks uses buy prices for required items/tags and subtracts that out of the selling price along with isk requirement and then divides by LP to get isk/lp. Every time I compare fuzzwork numbers to in game numbers they seem to match up very well. I'm not sure what the delay is, but there is always the risk you will get slightly old info, or someone else will act on it sooner than you can. Overall it looks pretty rock solid to me.

I use buy orders for all my tags, but still use the fuzzworks numbers because that would represent the opportunity cost of selling the tags. I used to use previous days median price in my own spreadsheet, but I'm lazy and fuzzworks does such a nice job.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#397 - 2015-12-04 07:45:50 UTC
Let's use Sisters Combat Scanner Probes then.

• Cost of 10 Combat Scanner Probe Is (Jita) ... 10x 12,894 = 128,940 ISK
• 10x Sisters Combat Scanner Probe (SoE store) ... 1,200,000 ISK
• 10x Sisters Combat Scanner Probe (SoE store) ... 1800 LP

In November the average selling price ranged from a low of around 450,000 ISK to a high of around 475,000 ISK, so we'll split the difference and go with 462,500 ISK as a realistic price to fetch (market conditions will vary).

• 4.625m ISK - 1.329m ISK = 3.296m ISK
• 3.296m ISK / 1800 LP = 1831 ISK/LP

As previously indicated (as as the numbers demonstrate), 2000 ISK/LP is unrealistic and 2400 ISK/LP is grossly exaggerated. Can you obtain more than 1800 ISK/LP? Sure, probably on occasion - and provided you're willing to watch the market like a hawk for 0.01 underbidders. This also won't be instantaneous ISK, and you could well be sitting on your items for days or longer. Maybe you can get 2400 ISK/LP on certain items, but since no one's delving into specifics ("2000 isk/lp can also be found in a surprisingly large number of factions too") I'm going to treat some of these higher conversions with a degree of skepticism.

And yes, depending on the system you mission, where you buy your probes and where you sell them will all influence these numbers. I'm using Jita, but this is by no means the best (or worst) market.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#398 - 2015-12-04 07:48:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Somewhat off-topic (but still related), when you run in a SoE system your likelihood of being ganked just increased 10-fold (if not more). And it doesn't matter if you're running a cheap T2 fit, when you're flying around in a billion ISK Marauder and run into one of the roving Catalyst or Tornado gank gangs simply looking to pad their killboard - all bets are off (just ask some of the former Golem owners who lost both ship and pod last night).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#399 - 2015-12-04 11:05:04 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Somewhat off-topic (but still related), when you run in a SoE system your likelihood of being ganked just increased 10-fold (if not more).


Chances of a t2 fitted battleship getting ganked are as close to nil as you can get.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:


As previously indicated (as as the numbers demonstrate), 2000 ISK/LP is unrealistic and 2400 ISK/LP is grossly exaggerated.


Your numbers are wrong, the tools we are using are indeed accurate hence why they get used.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#400 - 2015-12-04 11:55:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Somewhat off-topic (but still related), when you run in a SoE system your likelihood of being ganked just increased 10-fold (if not more).


Chances of a t2 fitted battleship getting ganked are as close to nil as you can get.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:


As previously indicated (as as the numbers demonstrate), 2000 ISK/LP is unrealistic and 2400 ISK/LP is grossly exaggerated.


Your numbers are wrong, the tools we are using are indeed accurate hence why they get used.


You don't need to use tools. I have station trading alts in Amarr, Dodixie, Ren and Jita and I can tell you that his numbers aren't that far off.